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On February 20 2012 16:48 Lord_J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill. I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2.
Actually, I don't understand what you're saying at all. In a proleague format there are fewer matches? How so?
In a Bo5, Winner's League format forces a team to send out 1-3 players. Proleague format forces a team to send out 3-5. In a Bo7, that's 1-4 to 4-7. In a Bo9, it's 1-5 to 5-9.
I don't think I get your angle here.
EDIT:
On February 20 2012 17:41 GTR wrote: why not have the best of both worlds ala dream league.
5 games blind entry winner of blind entry games play in winners league format until no players left for each team.
example; eg vs team liquid idra > hero demuslim < ret lzgamer < jinro puma > haypro jyp < tlo (players left are idra, ret, jinro and puma) idra < ret puma > ret puma > jinro puma < tlo
Never followed Dreamleague but that sounds like an interesting format!
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On February 20 2012 17:08 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 16:48 Lord_J wrote:On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill. I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2. No matter the format--teams will field their best players at all times unless it is pool play. In an elimination format you'll never have players take the chance to not field their best guys. In a pool format teams who are "ahead" pulls back and fields their less experienced players to improve the team as a whole. What's great about a proleague is that it allows for a team who is fielding their weaker players to not have them simply all killed by Flash or DRG. And since the success of their team does not rest solely on their shoulders. It gives the less experienced players the breathing room to do well without *having* to do a reverse all-kill.
That would be a great argument if it didn't utterly contradict the facts. But the truth is that we have seen a lot of teams take a chance on less-known players, even during elimination rounds in the GSTL, KSL, IPLTAC, and other all-kill leagues. It's precisely because they know that even if that player loses, they have other players they are confident in being able to get a multi-kill, that allows them the freedom to give players these kinds of chances. In proleague formats, that possibility doesn't exist, and neither, therefore does the opportunity for up and comers. The formulaic--and short--list of players who are fielded in those leagues bear that fact out.
DongRaeGu has the same number of all kills as MaruPrime. MVP has none. NesTea has none. MC has none. MMA has none. The idea that a proleague format helps prevent dominant star players from all-killing hapless up-and-comers is an attempt to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Most all kills are not by stars, they are by up and coming players like TaeJa, Sage, Squirtle, BboongBboong, Keen, Life, Seal, and Golden. In a proleague format those players would have won one game, if they were used at all, and most viewers would have shrugged and mostly ignored their contribution. It is only the all kill format that allowed them, and many others who managed less than an all kill, to be the star for a day.
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4713 Posts
While I do enjoy greatly when I see my favorite players perform an all-kill or reverse all-kill. I realize that, this isn't a true team league in a sense. In the AK format the weight of the team may fall on one or two aces to and the rest of the team may fall in the shadow.
In the same way that up and coming players have gotten exposure and fame for their performances, how many others have been left in the shadow, because they where not given a chance to shine?
I think Proleague format would be way better as long as you required 5 games, not 3 games to win the entire thing. That way the tension and excitement could continue game after game. In a 4-0 situation it would be up to all the following 5 players on the other team to make a comeback, not just 1 ace.
I don't see how 1 ace playing 5 games in a row trying to make a comeback, is more exciting than 5 people each trying to win his game. I'd say seeing 5 people each trying his best for his team would be better, as you don't know exactly how each and every one of them will perform, how they act under such pressure etc. And in such a case, if the team manages to do a reverse and go 5-4 the result would be much more dramatic and the sense of camaraderie and team bonding would be stronger.
So, while I find AK somewhat exciting, I feel that it is flawed for a team league and it encourages teams more and more to try and use their best players, instead of newer players. And while newer players do get sent out, it usually happens in some of the games that have little to no meaning.
I'm quite sure DRG and MMA would have risen to stardom even if they didn't become the aces of their teams in GSTL, because both are such remarkable players with such great potential. So lets leave the team leagues for the teams and the individual leagues to the individuals.
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I prefer GSTL format.
And I don't agree with this statement from OP:
On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match.
In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player).
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I prefer old wc3l type format.. 4 bo3s and an ace match of some sort
GSTL format's well enough though
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On February 20 2012 19:59 -Archangel- wrote:I prefer GSTL format. And I don't agree with this statement from OP: Show nested quote +On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match. In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player).
By your argument, Argentina and Portugal should have won the World Cup because they have Messi and Ronaldo respectively and Cleveland Cavaliers should have won an NBA Championship because they had Lebron. Just having one star player does not mean you should win the whole championship.
Yes star players will help win one or two games, but overall a team league should be won by a team that has consistent players. Look at KT last yr in BW proleague, sure they had Flash but he cant win them the championship himself, it was Stats as well as the KT zerg line that kept them competitive and won them the title.
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GSTL all the way. Preset matches seem just plain stupid to me.
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I prefer all kill formats. But not all the tournaments should be all kill formats. I like that GSTL is all kill, and NASL is not.
Diversity is good!
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I like the better team to in. And not the team with the best player. Proleague format!
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In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
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On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
...We see this in GSTL.
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On February 20 2012 16:48 Lord_J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 16:40 lorkac wrote: Proleague formats are great for watching for up and comers. Proleague formats also feel more fair "overall" by preventing teams from simply leaning on 1-2 players to make an all-kill. I don't understand this logic. In proleague formats there are less matches, and therefore less opportunities for up and comers to get fielded at all. Just look at the NASTL lineups so far: each team is basically just fielding a roster of their top 4 players every match. You don't get to see anything like Tails beating MVP and NesTea, or less-known players like Sage, BboongBboong, and Taeja coming out of obscurity to all kill established teams, or MVP_finale beating FXO's top three players--I could go on for paragraphs about all the examples of up and coming players having a chance to shine under the all-kill formats. I can't think of a single example of them having that chance under a proleague format in SC2.
This makes no sense. There are no less games in Proleague format at all - if you decide it's a BO7 for example, the number of games ranges through all BO7 results either way, the format makes no difference at all.
Your evidence is purely anecdotal, based on specific cases you remember. On average there will always be less players showing up in all-kill format because of the potential for double/triple/all-kills. That means LESS PEOPLE get to play on average. That isn't good for less-known upcoming players, it's bad.
Bottom line is, in PL format (BO7) you absolutely must send out A MINIMUM of 4 different players every time, and as many as 6 if you don't win 4-0. In all-kill format, you might only need one or two (and this is the case quite often in fact).
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49035 Posts
On February 20 2012 20:16 Aunvilgod wrote: GSTL all the way. Preset matches seem just plain stupid to me.
provide a proper argument against it,also you don't know the PL format, NASTL and PL format are not exactly the same, please do not confuse the two.
actually there seems to be a few misconceptions about the PL format in general.
firstly, unlike the NASTL the lineups are not announced until right before each set, this practice was started after the matchfixing scandal to prevent matchfixing.
also all the games are Bo1s, while some people might find this cringe worthy because of cheese or undeserving players winning, its better this way you are going to have that player practice that map at a level where he can hold of cheese and show that he can blow your mind with his play.
The number of matches are not somehow less as an above poster has stated, it is exactly the same as you would expect from an all-kill format.
Also, this format actually allows for more new team members to play, hell even win and not just be scapegoats to the superstars.
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On February 20 2012 19:59 -Archangel- wrote:I prefer GSTL format. And I don't agree with this statement from OP: Show nested quote +On the other hand, the EGMCSL and NASTL format probably reward the better team, as they can't just have one great player to win the match. In team games it is all about star players that carry their team. Messi, CR and others have done so in football for years, and I am sure in American sports these kind of players exist often (I know in basketball teams win often on backs of just one superstar player). you are guaranteed to be up 1-0 against your opponent with your star player having 99% chance of winning. Is that not enough of an advantage ? And if ace match is applied, you would probably never lose if it comes down to this (hi KT)
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Both are fine. All kill style is probably more exciting.
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I like them both equal, and hope that the team leagues don't all end up picking up the same format. Variation is a joy
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On February 20 2012 20:27 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 20:25 hakha wrote: In proleague format, you open up a WHOLE heap of possibilities that can only exist in team leagues. This hasn't been seen in sc2 as of yet, but you get the possibilities of seeing matchup snipers, people that are immensely good at either vT, vP or vZ that would never be able to get into GSL because of prelims. You also get map snipers, similar to matchup snipers but on a specific map, but this is hard due to most team leagues using wayy too many maps in a map pool.
And the burden of the current team league format on stars/aces is immense. I mean Team MVP was basically expecting DRG to do a 3 or 4-kill in each of their matches.....This is a LOT of stress and star players would rather focus on individual leagues, because the reward is just so much bigger.
...We see this in GSTL. Examples? I cant recall any snipers off the top of my head =S
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All-kill format has by far the most potential for legendary series
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Part of the reason for the NASTL format is that it makes it much easier to schedule, being that it's online and not in person. I prefer the GSTL format for all the reasons ppl have stated already, reminds me of crew battles from smash and other games.
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Prefer the winners format. Started watching this in BW, always liked Winners format better.
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