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On September 30 2012 14:07 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:09 Zooper31 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal as any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know. Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested. Bad example. Drug users have a direct negative effect on society and children that employees adverse and dangerous drugs. Prostitutes, if legal, would simply sell their body to the highest bidder. Who suffers? The prostitutes, it's their choice that is freedom and the buyer? If it's regulated and clean (not illegal) then there is no issue again. A better example would be the practice of religion. I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions. Yet why is it legal while my moral compass believes it should be illegal? Because my morality and my ethics should not dictate how other people use their free will and unless that free will directly (key word) inhibits another persons free will then I can't find a reasonable argument to correct it. There is no real arguable reason in today's society to ban prostitution, their is only an ethical "I feel like we just shouldn't have this". But is that good enough? Of course if you provide some reason why it should be banned or what type of effects it has then feel free to share them ^^ Um no it's not a bad example. You're overthinking way too much and turned this into a debate about religion, god knows how, pun intended. I used drug dealer as an example of an illegal activity people do to make money, same rule applies to prostitution and my example is perfectly fine. This conversation is about doing illegal things to earn a living, nothing about morals or negative effects on society. But it's not comparable... An illegal thing that harms people vs an illegal thing that doesn't. If religion was illegal it would fit that criteria of indirect harm that prostitution (note the comparison on ethical/moral concern) and that is the discussion and why religion and prostitution can be compared where the only comparison between drug dealing and prostitution is that you make money, then I suppose my job as an IT tech is comparable to prostitution by that comparison. Like I said, unless you can present some reason why it should be illegal other then "well... it's already illegal, it's kinda unethical in my opinion and you make money" that is an invalid argument.
Again the fact that the activity harms people has absolutely nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand. Only you brought it up and it's pointless. Once again though you bring up religion saying it should be illegal, which makes no sense at all. I'm not even going to bother to argue your opinions on what constitutes harming society and and what doesn't because that has no place in the matter.
We are talking purely in terms of an action that is illegal, produces money, and is something you'd think people wouldn't want to do by choice.
Did you bother to read where this conversation started? Or do you just wanna talk about why I disagree with your views on religion? In which case that's completely OT and I'm just gonna stop replying.
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I cannot begin to express how much it pleases me that TeamLiquid, a site dedicated to the Real Time Strategy franchise, "Starcraft", supports prostitution via the poll results.
tldr: Sure is foreveralone in here!
temp ban #2 hwaiting!!!!
User was banned for this post.
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+ Show Spoiler +You know the only reason you were banned the first time (from what it looks like) is for saying you were expecting to be banned, which is what you're doing again.... Why would you even bring that up? Posting well really isn't hard, but martyring/predicting bans for yourself is basically insta-ban.
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On September 30 2012 14:22 Grobyc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +You know the only reason you were banned the first time (from what it looks like) is for saying you were expecting to be banned, which is what you're doing again.... Why would you even bring that up? Posting well really isn't hard, but martyring/predicting bans for yourself is basically insta-ban.
I thought his post was OT and kinda funny too. Then saw he was predicting another ban and was like "wut"
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On September 30 2012 14:04 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 13:56 Zahir wrote:On September 30 2012 12:03 SoOThSLaYeR wrote: Excellent post OP.
One of the issues i felt hasn't been brought up is that we assume that prostitutes will have sex with anyone. I'm not entirely sure this is the case, whats to say that prostitutes will only provide their services to attractive costumers? Would it be fair to discriminate against less attractive people who want to purchase a service? Would the monetary exchange be the same for customers of different races and ethnic groups? If it isn't are we promoting racism or something? Overall i think prostitution could be a viable profession but what should it be based around? I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions!
again great OP The sad truth of the matter is that if you sign up to work in a brothel, call girl service or sign a contract to be someone's paid sex partner over a period of time, etc, then you will come under pressure to have sex with people or at times that you really don't want to. The most humane system would be to avoid "contractual" sex as much as possible, a smart prostitute would avoid working anywhere or signing contracts for anything where he/she would be pressured to not refuse sex later. Best system is relative autonomy and the ability to pick and choose sessions and clientele, like a lot of other independent professionals have. Anti discrimination laws tend not to focus on these types of independent transactions, more on fair and equal access to businesses and public accommodations... Basically, you should have the right to enter a brothel and receive the same services as anyone else. However brothels should only be facilitators, allowing you to meet prostitutes, who are themselves autonomous and independent professionals. Thus no discrimination (at least not on the brothels part) if one or all of them turn you down. I also like the idea of prostitutes paying a fee to be in the brothel rather than having their rates be decided for them, large cuts taken out of all their nightly profits, etc which feels more like exploitation. Decentralization with non coercive support structures is key. But if prostitutes could decide on who exactly to have sex with wouldn't that exactly like real life and meeting a woman? Minus the money of course. The type of people who go to prosititutes don't have the looks, resources, ability, etc to get woman normally so why would prostitutes be any better if they have just as much freedom with their choices, they are just going to get turned down too regardless. It's a tricky thing really. I only see this either turning all woman into prostitutes for a certain price or prostitution would go out of business if only good looking attractive guys are given the OK. Which if that happens, why are they going to prostitutes in the first place, they obviously can get some action for free from normal woman. Would prostitution be only be for a very small subset of people who are below average looking but still doable, but lack any type of socializing behavior needed to get woman? Which would be fixed by simply being up front and paying for it. Many freelance prostitutes actually have their own boundaries. Here in the UK you can clearly see on their ads a lot of them have disclaimers that say things like "Sorry I don't see black / middle eastern men etc" and they all generally reserve the right to cancel an appointment for whatever reason.
Yes it is kind of like real life, imo it's no different from gold diggers, it's a balance between how much you want the money and how much you can stand the guy. Only scenario where they will be forced to do ANY guy is if their pimp forces them too. And personally I think pimping should be illegal.
And from a hooker's POV, it also depends on how many clients they have so that they can afford to be picky. The really hot ones that are reasonably priced obviously can be, but the really meh looking ones can't.
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On September 30 2012 14:10 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 14:07 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:09 Zooper31 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal as any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know. Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested. Bad example. Drug users have a direct negative effect on society and children that employees adverse and dangerous drugs. Prostitutes, if legal, would simply sell their body to the highest bidder. Who suffers? The prostitutes, it's their choice that is freedom and the buyer? If it's regulated and clean (not illegal) then there is no issue again. A better example would be the practice of religion. I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions. Yet why is it legal while my moral compass believes it should be illegal? Because my morality and my ethics should not dictate how other people use their free will and unless that free will directly (key word) inhibits another persons free will then I can't find a reasonable argument to correct it. There is no real arguable reason in today's society to ban prostitution, their is only an ethical "I feel like we just shouldn't have this". But is that good enough? Of course if you provide some reason why it should be banned or what type of effects it has then feel free to share them ^^ Um no it's not a bad example. You're overthinking way too much and turned this into a debate about religion, god knows how, pun intended. I used drug dealer as an example of an illegal activity people do to make money, same rule applies to prostitution and my example is perfectly fine. This conversation is about doing illegal things to earn a living, nothing about morals or negative effects on society. But it's not comparable... An illegal thing that harms people vs an illegal thing that doesn't. If religion was illegal it would fit that criteria of indirect harm that prostitution (note the comparison on ethical/moral concern) and that is the discussion and why religion and prostitution can be compared where the only comparison between drug dealing and prostitution is that you make money, then I suppose my job as an IT tech is comparable to prostitution by that comparison. Like I said, unless you can present some reason why it should be illegal other then "well... it's already illegal, it's kinda unethical in my opinion and you make money" that is an invalid argument. Again the fact that the activity harms people has absolutely nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand. Only you brought it up and it's pointless. Once again though you bring up religion saying it should be illegal, which makes no sense at all. I'm not even going to bother to argue your opinions on what constitutes harming society and and what doesn't because that has no place in the matter. We are talking purely in terms of an action that is illegal, produces money, and is something you'd think people wouldn't want to do by choice. Did you bother to read where this conversation started? Or do you just wanna talk about why I disagree with your views on religion? In which case that's completely OT and I'm just gonna stop replying.
I have no issue with religion, again I was making reference to that example of prostitution and religion as something that "you'd think people wouldn't want to do by choice". Seems to fit.
Is the only comparison between prostitution and drug dealing/using that it produces money and it's not something someone may want to do? If that's the case my part time job should be illegal by that comparison so as I said it is a poor comparison. Unless of course you can perhaps find another way they compare that would warrant its legality to come in question such as drug dealing/using is.
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same thing with weed. if weed can be legalized then so should prostitution(with limits and regulations of course).
i personally think that women would no longer be "forced" into it by pimps if it because a legit and legal business. basides, a pimp would force a women into it regardless of if its legal or not. thats just the way i see it
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On September 30 2012 15:18 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I have no issue with religion
On September 30 2012 12:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions.
Are you trolling me or do you have short term memory loss?
On September 30 2012 15:18 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Is the only comparison between prostitution and drug dealing/using that it produces money and it's not something someone may want to do? If that's the case my part time job should be illegal by that comparison so as I said it is a poor comparison. Unless of course you can perhaps find another way they compare that would warrant its legality to come in question such as drug dealing/using is.
Your part time job is not illegal therefore it doesn't fit me criteria which I based my analogy on.
On September 30 2012 14:10 Zooper31 wrote:
We are talking purely in terms of an action that is illegal, produces money, and is something you'd think people wouldn't want to do by choice.
This is my basis for my analogy if you can't remember. If you can think of something else that fits better in this criteria then please show me.
Think this conversation is over.
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On September 30 2012 15:47 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions. Are you trolling me or do you have short term memory loss? Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 15:18 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Is the only comparison between prostitution and drug dealing/using that it produces money and it's not something someone may want to do? If that's the case my part time job should be illegal by that comparison so as I said it is a poor comparison. Unless of course you can perhaps find another way they compare that would warrant its legality to come in question such as drug dealing/using is. Your part time job is not illegal therefore it doesn't fit me criteria which I based my analogy on. Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 14:10 Zooper31 wrote:
We are talking purely in terms of an action that is illegal, produces money, and is something you'd think people wouldn't want to do by choice. This is my basis for my analogy if you can't remember. If you can think of something else that fits better in this criteria then please show me. Think this conversation is over. Whether legal or not should never be discussed when comparing. Legality relatively means nothing, it is the reasoning behind such things that comes into question, if you lived in Uganda would you follow behind the law that relatively condemns gay people to death? No in an educated discussion you are discussing the direct consquences and indirect consequences so saying "your part time job is not illegal therefore it doesn't fit my criteria which I based my analogy on" puts your analogy and comparison into a bad light, you're basing your analogy off pre dispositions. It usto be legal to own slaves, you made money owning slaves and it's not something we'd want someone to do so I suppose that wouldn't fit either because it was legal then?
Your viewpoint on my comment on religion is completely out of context. The reason religion was used as a context of argument was because it was discussing the ethics and morality of a subject and not the indirect or direct consequences so by comparison because of a possible (I suppose I phrased it incorrectly, I was making up a situation comparable) dislike of the ethics of religion and treatment we should make it illegal as well just like prostitution due to a similar debate on ethics and not cause/effect/harm.
I don't see why you're dodging the reason why it is a good/bad comparison, explain to me how comparing drug dealers and prostitutes fit in any realistic manner... "It's illegal, it makes money and it makes people feel ethically non-supportive" is a pretty poor comparison to make any point.
"I think this conversation is over" <-- snap, see what I did there? I inserted a facetious comment to try and assert some form of logical dominance over a conversation. If I'm to be a hypocrite and mock what others do and then repeat it in a similar gesture, I may as well enjoy myself while I do it.
And if the "basis of your analogy" is just a poor basis to begin with into a subject regarding prostitution then you shouldn't be wondering why someone would question or poke at it. Saying "It's illegal and it makes money" is a rather odd thing to make an argument out of, especially since you didn't take the time to define the variables such as why/to what end is it illegal? How does it make money, where does that money go and could we perhaps see that money go elsewhere?
I don't even want to note the last part because it is entirely subjective, how you feel about something should not ever have an opinion when it comes to legality. You may say "well I feel poorly about rape!" but rape is the direct assault of a person, it inhibits freedom of a person and it then has reasons to be made illegal whereas you can't simply say "Rape is illegal, be gone with it!". You have to explain that stance, feelings have nothing to do with it and if they did then homosexuality would still not be recognized because the majority of Americans (although quickly dissipating) are religious people who believe homosexuality is a choice and we shouldn't allow a choice against god.
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I love prostitutes, they make me happy, and I think I make them happy, too.
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On September 30 2012 18:03 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I love prostitutes, they make me happy, and I think I make them happy, too.
Nah, man.. You devour a little part of their souls every time.. You're a soul sadist..
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If prostitutes are victims for being "pushed" into prostitution because of economic reasons, then you can say the same for pretty much any one who makes minimum wage. They are pushed into a shitty job because they can't get good ones. If you think prostitution should be illegal, then why not say something about minimum wage?
Would you pay a person with the IQ of 60 to do the same work a monkey can do for free? Well, you can't make monkeys work for you per se in the US, so you'd have to hire the person by law. This, in turn, would make the employer a victim, as well. They are being forced to pay for someone's life because he/she isn't able to really do much with his/her own. There literally is no skill in moping a floor or washing dishes.
Unless you want to help the person morally, but that can be bad for business. So, does morality make everyone a victim? Why else are the laws there? (Not for people of low IQ, but because of morals in general.)
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Same as for Weed....
Legalize it, get more taxes. I don't see any bad in this.
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On September 29 2012 02:04 Kaeru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 01:50 noD wrote:As long as they are doing by free will no problem ... It's actually the oldest job known by man I wonder what precentage of prostitutes that do it by free will is. If someone choose prostitution because of economical issues - thats not free will. Thats being pushed into it. Same goes for acknowledgement issues and actually most cases. There might be a small fraction of people that have sex for money by free will - but that number is likely VERY small.
what do u think how many people work any job by "free will" and not because of economical issues ? (getting money to live)
by your definition thats slavery ?
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very very good OP very nice read
my opinion stays the same: prostitution should be illegalized eventhough there is not really a good choice to be made here :/
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Personally, if there's informed consent between adults... I have no issue whatsoever.
Nice OP.
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On September 30 2012 18:31 DigiGnar wrote: If prostitutes are victims for being "pushed" into prostitution because of economic reasons, then you can say the same for pretty much any one who makes minimum wage. They are pushed into a shitty job because they can't get good ones. If you think prostitution should be illegal, then why not say something about minimum wage?
Would you pay a person with the IQ of 60 to do the same work a monkey can do for free? Well, you can't make monkeys work for you per se in the US, so you'd have to hire the person by law. This, in turn, would make the employer a victim, as well. They are being forced to pay for someone's life because he/she isn't able to really do much with his/her own. There literally is no skill in moping a floor or washing dishes.
Unless you want to help the person morally, but that can be bad for business. So, does morality make everyone a victim? Why else are the laws there? (Not for people of low IQ, but because of morals in general.) it makes no sense to equate or compare ones physical abilities with ones psychical abilities. to have a case here, you should compare a whole prostitute with a prostitute without hands or something and then argue who is pushed into what or who will get the good one. 60 iq prostitutes can/may be way better at their job then 100 iq ones.
Edit: 'cause i refuse to believe that what you argued was: 'people become/end up prostitutes because they're stupid/have low IQ.'
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I say make it legal, Get them some kind of health benefits and governmental regulation so it's safer. It's just like Weed people are going to find a way do it either way. So why not tax the living shit out of it.
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On September 30 2012 15:47 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions. Are you trolling me or do you have short term memory loss? Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 15:18 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
Is the only comparison between prostitution and drug dealing/using that it produces money and it's not something someone may want to do? If that's the case my part time job should be illegal by that comparison so as I said it is a poor comparison. Unless of course you can perhaps find another way they compare that would warrant its legality to come in question such as drug dealing/using is. Your part time job is not illegal therefore it doesn't fit me criteria which I based my analogy on. Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 14:10 Zooper31 wrote:
We are talking purely in terms of an action that is illegal, produces money, and is something you'd think people wouldn't want to do by choice. This is my basis for my analogy if you can't remember. If you can think of something else that fits better in this criteria then please show me. Think this conversation is over. He seriously wasn't talking about religion. He used religion as an example to illustrate how any individual should be allowed to partake in an activity as long as there actions don't harm another persons individual freedom. IE: If we are both consenting to prostitution its fine, because there is no harm if its between consenting individuals both making choices that have no physical effect on anyone else.
He was saying that saying it should be illegal because its immoral/bad/illegal already or whatever is stupid. Then he made a comparison to religion to illustrate how morality and right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder and unless there choice directly effects the freedom of another there is no just cause to ban something. IE: I think its fine to use any drugs, but I don't think it is fine to use drugs/drink and drive because now your behavior carries the chance to cause harm to others.
His example was simply that just because HE thinks religion is bad/horrible doesn't mean he thinks it should be banned/illegal. Which is functionally what many anti-prostitution arguments boil down to. Subjecting others to your personal morality is wrong.
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