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On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran? Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
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A lot of good ideas. I'm not sure about Zerg nerfs but Protoss needs big changes. Currently the race is very limited and dependant on random things like vortex or bo wins in PvP.
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I feel sorry for SaSe, so much stupidity in this thread.
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What do you guys think of increasing build time for the queen or spawning pool. I think increasing the queen would be nice. Should delay zerg long enough so they open up more to timings.
Since warp gate tech got delayed for the sake of pvp and barracks building time increased i think a similar should be done to zerg. Increasing the build time on the queen should delay the zerg enough to make 3 base play be more risky.
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I wanted to give a good answer to this bad thread but heres my new version. Protoss is doing fine and gets a lot of improvement in Hots.
Sase is 25 year old - life is 15 years old and playing the gsl final tomorow.
Sase: Practise = linear improvement, who plays more is better. JUST NOT TRUE. That would require that every person is equal. You have reached your skillcap bro, stop playing mass games every day and try to improve something else.
Last GSL final PvP, OSL almost Pvp finals, WCS korea/asia
other point, trough his whiny QQ in the last time Sase shouldnt be allowed to have an opinion like ROOTod, DigSelect, Idra and Rotterdamn, Grubby. All this player have something in common, they´re at its best C-pros and should accept even if a race gets nerfed they will never be good at this game again.
btw. Protoss player are really hyprocrats, for example Grubby saying zerg doesnt require micro his answer was the phase shield lol Mc said after Hero vs. Leenock Zerg buildings shouldnt be able to move out of bases. I agree, like Pylons shouldnt R.i.p. Cannonrushes.
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People are surprised that he is talking from a Protoss perspective? What do you expect?
I think he made a lot of good points, and had some good ideas.
The problem for protoss against zerg is that every attack has to be an all in to win. This is fundamentally broken. I think this might be because hard counters in SC2 are too strong. 1 unit comes out and it is over if you are not prepared for it so you have to attack at a time before that unit comes out aka infestors/broodlords.
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On October 19 2012 20:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
Just things I've been thinking about.
This is one of the best 'Idea posts' i have read about balance if not THE best. Zerg's would have a huge cry about the roach speed off creep but considering the cost of a roach and the mobility of zergling's etc they shouldn't. Really well thought out, kudos to you sir
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Thank you Sase, your views on this are absolutely brilliant.
I very much hope Blizzard takes note of your suggestions as I think they're incredible and would fix what is very wrong with this game at present.
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On October 19 2012 21:05 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 20:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
Just things I've been thinking about. This is one of the best 'Idea posts' i have read about balance if not THE best. Zerg's would have a huge cry about the roach speed off creep but considering the cost of a roach and the mobility of zergling's etc they shouldn't. Really well thought out, kudos to you sir
These are some really good suggestions too.
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I think Sase has some good points about WOL: early scouting vs Zerg infestors too strong creep vision too much Mothership should be a fun unit not a unit that decides the game the flower pylon pylon range Phoenix
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What's the point talking about WOL problems so much when there are already HOTS changes coming up anyway.. Broodlord/infestor/spine lategame is already handled a little bit by massive changes in the matchup with tempest, viper, locust swarm etc. Scouting problem is already dealt with by 1) purify so you don't need to scout 2) easier availability of hallucinate and 3) recall so you can attack without big repercussions against zerg
Of all these stuff listed only the sillyness of the mothership remains. If it turns out to be a problem is not sure because mothership might just be an unused or unimportant unit in HOTS unlike it is now. Still I agree it should be removed since it either sucks or will be so pivotal that long games can be decided by the use of just 1 unit which doesn't fit in the sc2 experience really.
For now I'm mostly worried about the stupidity that is the oracle and Mothership core. The terran, zerg and rest of the protoss changes actually look ok to me (despite being a bit boring).
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On October 19 2012 20:31 ImNightmare wrote:Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine.
You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway.
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On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh.
Same. So you want to make protoss easier and harder for the rest? some of your idea can be good.
What i want for sc2 is that all race put the same amont of efforts to win a game.
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I think a lot of people missed the following part:
I am not saying all these things are needed. For infestor probably one or two.
Personally, as a Zerg player, I can still agree to most of these points. I'd personally like to have the Colossus replaced as well.
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On October 19 2012 21:27 Thylacine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 20:31 ImNightmare wrote:On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran? Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine. You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway. Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op.
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On October 19 2012 21:27 Imzoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. Same. So you want to make protoss easier and harder for the rest? some of your idea can be good. What i want for sc2 is that all race put the same amont of efforts to win a game. This is the problem with sc2. Every race thinks they are putting more effort to win then the other race. Its not as clear cut as in BW when if you lose, you know its your fault. Someone posted on team liquid why Protoss is so frustrating to play against and has so many quote worthy moments there. The game is not clear cut enough, people blame imbalance because they can't see for themselves how shitty they are unlike BW.
Edit: found the article http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374845
I personally feel the article I link has a more objective view of the balance of the game rather then sase's rather one sided bias view of zerg is op( and a lot less QQing). Which is wrong, since immortal sentry is just as frustrating to play against for us zerg as BL/infestor is to toss.
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Austria24413 Posts
On October 19 2012 21:15 UnholyRai wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 21:05 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:On October 19 2012 20:05 DarkLordOlli wrote: I think the big issue with PvZ is how every attack protoss attempts the whole game long is almost all in. Early game, you have to rely on sentries so much that you cannot move out unless you all in. If you lose your sentries the game ends right there. Midgame, roaches are faster than your army so you basically have to engage a roach/ling army if the zerg wants you to. If you lose your army, the game ends. Once infestors are out, the danger of being fungaled is enough to keep you at home because if you lose your army, the game ends. And after all that, here's the worst part. You cannot beat BL/infestor unless you get a lucky vortex. So basically, here's the protoss metagame that doesn't involve an all in right now: you sit at home, turtling until lategame to allow zerg to create an army you cannot beat. How does protoss have a high winrate in PvZ then? Well, they don't. There are equal winrates in Korea for PvZ right now but the only reason for that is that Korean protoss have been a million times better at a) two base all ins and b) pre hive timings (all ins) ever since they existed. That's where those wins come from.
PvZ is currently unwinnable against a zerg that doesn't make mistakes. Doesn't matter how good you are.
So, what do we do about it? First of all, remove roach speed or move it to hive. I don't even understand why it's in the game (this early). A protoss army still won't catch up with roaches (except for stalkers) and that's how it should be. Keep the current speed on creep though. Zerg should have an apparent speed advantage on creep. Protoss already pays 125/50 for a stalker compared to the roach's 75/25 for the higher mobility but that currently doesn't exist on and off creep. What would this change? You could move out on the map with stalkers aggressively until infestors are out, put pressure on, pull your opponent out of position and so on. You could outmicro roaches with stalkers (!!!) which make both playing and watching more fun imo. It just opens up the midgame. Zerg would have to be more careful about their movements on the map. If they do a 200/200 roach attack, it would be much more of an all in - as it should be. However, since the speed on creep would be the same as a speed roach on creep now, the roach would still fill the same role defensively. Zergs would just have to better at spreading creep, denying observers, etc. All things that would make the game better imo. Does this affect any 2 base all ins? Not in the slightest. Does it affect lategame? Not at all except that protoss would have a way better chance at dealing some damage early/midgame and thus gain advantages and maybe start the stargate tech earlier, which then might help deal with BL/infestor.
Make the corruptor massive. That way, void rays are finally effective against them and suddenly serve a purpose in the protoss arsenal. As it is right now, corruptors can be massed ridiculously easily and with infestor support, make protoss air effectively useless. Their unit profile says they're "weak against void rays" while really through game mechanics, corruptor speed and the time it takes to mass them, it's the exact opposite. This doesn't affect TvZ or ZvZ in any way unless I missed something. What would change? Void rays could finally be the answer to BL/infestor. Infestors would have to focus more on dealing with void rays to prevent the corruptors and then the brood lords from being attacked. Meanwhile, stalkers become stronger through all the infestor energy void rays drain. This does not affect any 2 base aggression (like +1 4gate void ray pressure, single/double stargate openers). It would make protoss air much more viable and would force zerg into hydras which should have a speed upgrade at lair (as ItWhoSpeaks described in his post on the forums recently).
Just things I've been thinking about. This is one of the best 'Idea posts' i have read about balance if not THE best. Zerg's would have a huge cry about the roach speed off creep but considering the cost of a roach and the mobility of zergling's etc they shouldn't. Really well thought out, kudos to you sir These are some really good suggestions too.
Would have to be careful about ZvT balance with the roach speed upgrade though. There's a lot of different mech builds out there that might be able to abuse the lack of roach speed. So maybe roach speed at infestation pit instead of hive or something... not sure. Mech against zerg is still somewhat unexplored concerning timings and unit composition at certain times I think.
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On October 19 2012 21:33 ImNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 21:27 Thylacine wrote:On October 19 2012 20:31 ImNightmare wrote:On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran? Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine. You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway. Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op. Because people actually watch pro games.
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oh my lord, one big giant whine thread.... *please blizzard nerf the other guy so I can be better without playing*
If its so imba, change race.
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On October 19 2012 21:45 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 21:33 ImNightmare wrote:On October 19 2012 21:27 Thylacine wrote:On October 19 2012 20:31 ImNightmare wrote:On October 19 2012 20:29 Thylacine wrote: Why no thoughts on Terran? Because Terrans are having problems with Toss and Toss are crushing terrans with terrans complaining about Storms and colossus. Rock paper scissors analogy all over again, If you are rock, paper is op, scissors is fine. You play Zerg so you got no clue how PvT or TvP is at the moment anyway. Yes I don't but Liquid reports shows terran complaining about protoss. Accept that fact, not everyone thinks toss is UP, especially not terrans or zergs. And especially not the win rates when protoss has a bigger win rate then zerg and not even one toss on this thread covered that fact. Its like all of a sudden zerg is OP, even if the win rates shows toss might be stronger, zerg is still op. Because people actually watch pro games. Yeah, So I guess the recent WCS proves toss are just whining? Because they sure are ripping zergs and terrans a new one there. 7 toss. lol.
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