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On October 21 2012 18:39 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 18:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 21 2012 16:58 Voltaire wrote: Watching the TV show "Cathouse" makes me want to visit a brothel in Nevada.
A lot of these girls enjoy their jobs. There are plenty of people willing to do this safely and legally. Oh suuuure. HBO horny series is such a great source of information. And the whores looked soooo happy. Isn't the world beautiful? "A grotesque exercise in the dehumanization of women is carried out routinely at Sheri's Ranch, a legal brothel about an hour’s ride outside of Vegas. There the women have to respond like Pavlov’s dog to an electronic bell that might ring at any hour of the day or night. At the sound of the bell, the prostitutes have five minutes to get to an assembly area where they line up, virtually naked, and submit to a humiliating inspection by any prospective customer who has happened to drop by"http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/opinion/15herbert.html?_r=1Brothels impose some extraordinary restrictions on commercial sex workers" in order to "separate sex workers from the local community": some places forbid prostitutes to leave the brothels for extended periods of time, while other jurisdictions require the prostitutes to leave the county when they are not working; some places do not allow the children of the women who work in the brothels to live in the same area; some brothel workers who have cars must register the vehicle with the local police, and workers are not permitted to leave the brothel after 5pm; in some counties registered sex workers are not allowed to have cars at all.http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/apr/03/nevada-prostitution-"The brothel owners are worse than any pimp. They abuse and imprison women and are fully protected by the state"Teri, prostitute. http://www.sexwork.com/legal/NevPimpHouses.htmlIf you believe their PR, Nevada's legal brothels are safe, healthy – even fun – places in which to work. So why do so many prostitutes tell such horrific tales of abuse?http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.genderBut of course I guess in libertarian's fantasy world, protitution is all great because women chose it freely. You know. They enjoy being raped 30 times a day for the profit of abusive bosses with a contract that transform them into semi slaves. A brothel owner is somebody who, when it gets down to the very essence, is nothing more than a slave-ownerAssemblyman Bob L. Beers If you don't like the conditions for working as a prostitute, don't be a prostitute. Get a job at McDonald's or Wal-Mart. You are in charge of your own life. Make your own decisions. We really can't help it if they're too stupid to get away from this horrible, horrible job that they have. It's their choice that they'd rather get fucked for money instead of working for it like everyone else. It's probably not as bad as working at Wal-Mart in their minds. Should we make working at Wal-Mart illegal as well? Yeaaah, world is so simple
"If you don't want to be beaten by your husband, leave him": let's stop making laws against beating your wife "If you don't want to be exploited to death and harass by your boss, leave your job": let's stop making any rules about working conditions
Should I carry on? I can find 50 more.
[edit] Personally, I've met about 4 happy prostitutes for every 1 depressed one. That's a better ratio than people working at most fast-food places. [/edit] Yeah? I'm sure you really know about those "happy" prostitute. Cuz you know, they tell everybody everything.
And if you don't see the difference between being unhappy selling burgers and what was described in those articles in terms of slavery, rape, humiliation, degradation etc..., you really have a problem.
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On October 20 2012 13:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 13:07 d[s]c wrote: "A woman, who had been involved in pornography as an adult performer, killed herself today, after having performed for two years"- sound like that could or couldn't happen? ofcourse, it sounds like it could. You don't kill yourself from working as cashier. You don't feel disgusted like "that" from working an absolutely innocent thing like organizing files. People comprehend why people would feel "disgusted" in doing such things, because they know what it is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postalAlso you have some really, really messed up views on sex. I feel genuinely sorry for you. Sex is a celebration of passion and the human body, even the icky parts.
Sex is just sex ok. It can be a celebration. It can be humilitation.
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United States40787 Posts
On October 21 2012 18:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 18:39 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:On October 21 2012 18:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 21 2012 16:58 Voltaire wrote: Watching the TV show "Cathouse" makes me want to visit a brothel in Nevada.
A lot of these girls enjoy their jobs. There are plenty of people willing to do this safely and legally. Oh suuuure. HBO horny series is such a great source of information. And the whores looked soooo happy. Isn't the world beautiful? "A grotesque exercise in the dehumanization of women is carried out routinely at Sheri's Ranch, a legal brothel about an hour’s ride outside of Vegas. There the women have to respond like Pavlov’s dog to an electronic bell that might ring at any hour of the day or night. At the sound of the bell, the prostitutes have five minutes to get to an assembly area where they line up, virtually naked, and submit to a humiliating inspection by any prospective customer who has happened to drop by"http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/opinion/15herbert.html?_r=1Brothels impose some extraordinary restrictions on commercial sex workers" in order to "separate sex workers from the local community": some places forbid prostitutes to leave the brothels for extended periods of time, while other jurisdictions require the prostitutes to leave the county when they are not working; some places do not allow the children of the women who work in the brothels to live in the same area; some brothel workers who have cars must register the vehicle with the local police, and workers are not permitted to leave the brothel after 5pm; in some counties registered sex workers are not allowed to have cars at all.http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/apr/03/nevada-prostitution-"The brothel owners are worse than any pimp. They abuse and imprison women and are fully protected by the state"Teri, prostitute. http://www.sexwork.com/legal/NevPimpHouses.htmlIf you believe their PR, Nevada's legal brothels are safe, healthy – even fun – places in which to work. So why do so many prostitutes tell such horrific tales of abuse?http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.genderBut of course I guess in libertarian's fantasy world, protitution is all great because women chose it freely. You know. They enjoy being raped 30 times a day for the profit of abusive bosses with a contract that transform them into semi slaves. A brothel owner is somebody who, when it gets down to the very essence, is nothing more than a slave-ownerAssemblyman Bob L. Beers If you don't like the conditions for working as a prostitute, don't be a prostitute. Get a job at McDonald's or Wal-Mart. You are in charge of your own life. Make your own decisions. We really can't help it if they're too stupid to get away from this horrible, horrible job that they have. It's their choice that they'd rather get fucked for money instead of working for it like everyone else. It's probably not as bad as working at Wal-Mart in their minds. Should we make working at Wal-Mart illegal as well? Yeaaah, world is so simple " If you don't want to be beaten by your husband, leave him": let's stop making laws against beating your wife " If you don't want to be exploited to death and harass by your boss, leave your job": let's stop making any rules about working conditions Should I carry on? I can find 50 more. Show nested quote +[edit] Personally, I've met about 4 happy prostitutes for every 1 depressed one. That's a better ratio than people working at most fast-food places. [/edit] Yeah? I'm sure you really know about those "happy" prostitute. Cuz you know, they tell everybody everything. And if you don't see the difference between being unhappy selling burgers and what was described in those articles in terms of slavery, rape, humiliation, degradation etc..., you really have a problem. You've drawn an equivalency between domestic violence and sex work. The reason protection against violence needs to be legally enshrined is obvious, would you like to make the case why protection from sex work when working as a prostitute needs to be legally enshrined? Right now it seems like a false equivalency. Unless the prostitute is forced to have sex with the client by the brothel then it is not rape. If the brothel negotiates a fee on her behalf and pays her for it then it is a business transaction between her and the client. If she does not wish to have sex with the client then she can quit her job. At no point is it rape, rape is when someone does not or cannot consent to sex and sex happens anyway.
Almost all forms of employment are labour on some else's behalf for the profit of someone else. However that alone does not make it slavery because there is always the potential for the employee to say "I quit" and go home. They may be in trouble if they do, for example if they have accepted a contract and fail to fulfill their obligations, but they always have the freedom to do so. That same distinction is what makes prostitutes not rape victims. Now, should one of them say "I quit" and the brothel owners refuse to allow them to quit then it'll become rape. But that is a completely separate issue. You don't deal with drunk drivers by banning cars, you don't deal with abusive brothel owners by banning prostitution.
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Biff some of the links you supplied were written by third parties, inferring their own conclusions about what the women thought instead of posting what the women thought. Who's to say if they really felt humiliated? I may be going out in about an hour to buy a $6.50 copy of the Sunday NYT but I don't take every journalist at face value.
Your other links, while directly pertaining to what I wish were addressed (personal experience in legalized sex trade industry) in the earlier links, show and describe the horrible and sometimes horrifying reality of unregulated and wicked prostitution. I would support legalization but I would also support prosecution for anyone who abuses prostitutes or prostitutes that abuse customers. Just because they suck dick for money does not mean regular laws do not apply to them.
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While I don't believe prostitution should be legalized as the last thing I would want it prostitutes freely roaming the street I am extremely hypocritical on the fact that I find it literally LOL funny that paying for sex is illegal yet not paying for sex is legal.
It's a tricky subject for me, on one hand I don't see why not, on the other I'm like HELL NO.
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Well you're not allowed to sell your oranges or car stereos on the street unless you have a permit. I can't imagine if there was a legal alternative someone would want to risk being arrested for an improper business
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On October 21 2012 18:59 Probe1 wrote: Biff some of the links you supplied were written by third parties, inferring their own conclusions about what the women thought instead of posting what the women thought. Who's to say if they really felt humiliated? I may be going out in about an hour to buy a $6.50 copy of the Sunday NYT but I don't take every journalist at face value.
Your other links, while directly pertaining to what I wish were addressed (personal experience in legalized sex trade industry) in the earlier links, show and describe the horrible and sometimes horrifying reality of unregulated and wicked prostitution. I would support legalization but I would also support prosecution for anyone who abuses prostitutes or prostitutes that abuse customers. Just because they suck dick for money does not mean regular laws do not apply to them. Yeah; look, I agree completely.
I do not have an opinion on the subject. I just reacted to my libby friend's Voltaire saying that legal prostitution was so great because he saw this show about Nevada's "whore paradise". It's not a paradise. It's apparently legal sexual slavery.
My libertarian side (not this american far right shit à-la like Ayn Rand or Ron Paul, let's be clear) tells me that after all, your body is your property, and you do with it what you want to do.
The problem is that I have never heard of a single place on earth (except mayyybe for Holland, but even there it's super controversial) where prostitutes had decent living conditions without hearing all kind of monstrous stories and testimonies from people having been there.
My principles would make me an adept of the Dutch solution: a very strictly regulated legal market that makes sure that it is done in precise conditions that prevent all type of abusing, but I think facts make me lean towards the Swedish one: prohibition. I think everybody agrees nowadays in Sweden that it was a great idea, even people who fought for legalisation at the time prohibition started.
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They say prostitution is a victimless crime but all too often you are the one that describes it in reality. I agree and cannot deny that legalized prostitution comes with great risk.
In my mind I would vote for legalizing prostitution if 'the Dutch solution' was the option given. But I believe that those monstrous stories are in the most part, factual. If we could legalize it and it would offer a safer and better solution for the men and women who will regardless of the law engage in prostitution, I would vote yes.
If all we did was sweep the matter under the rug so the living room didn't look as messy then, of course the Swedish way is right.
Edit: And here we have why it is such a contentious issue :p To legalize we would pretty much have to successfully promise safer working conditions and healthier cities because of legalization. That's a tough goal.
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On October 21 2012 19:24 Probe1 wrote: If all we did was sweep the matter under the rug so the living room didn't look as messy then, of course the Swedish way is right.
Well, apparently they got rid of the rug also.
In all seriousness, I think they manage to basically just erradicate prostitution. It's a bit extreme, but again, the alternative is not great for what I've seen.
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Legalizing prostitution clearly decreases the risks if we take for fact that demand for sex will always dictate an illicit market for it in the absence of a legal one.
This isn't one like drugs where you can argue that people will harm themselves. If prostitution is legal and well-regulated then logically the illegal market will diminish and likely generally disappear. Suddenly, prostitutes have worker's rights and can report abuse by clients and employers. Prices are likely to fall, as well.
HOORAY!
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Hahah XD that was a nice retort and it for some reason made me think of shaving. Rug=poil pubien=lol
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On October 21 2012 19:49 Probe1 wrote: Hahah XD that was a nice retort and it for some reason made me think of shaving. Rug=poil pubien=lol Oh god. That was an unintended pun hahaha
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On October 21 2012 18:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:58 Voltaire wrote: Watching the TV show "Cathouse" makes me want to visit a brothel in Nevada.
A lot of these girls enjoy their jobs. There are plenty of people willing to do this safely and legally. Oh suuuure. HBO horny series is such a great source of information. And the whores looked soooo happy. Isn't the world beautiful? "A grotesque exercise in the dehumanization of women is carried out routinely at Sheri's Ranch, a legal brothel about an hour’s ride outside of Vegas. There the women have to respond like Pavlov’s dog to an electronic bell that might ring at any hour of the day or night. At the sound of the bell, the prostitutes have five minutes to get to an assembly area where they line up, virtually naked, and submit to a humiliating inspection by any prospective customer who has happened to drop by"http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/opinion/15herbert.html?_r=1Brothels impose some extraordinary restrictions on commercial sex workers" in order to "separate sex workers from the local community": some places forbid prostitutes to leave the brothels for extended periods of time, while other jurisdictions require the prostitutes to leave the county when they are not working; some places do not allow the children of the women who work in the brothels to live in the same area; some brothel workers who have cars must register the vehicle with the local police, and workers are not permitted to leave the brothel after 5pm; in some counties registered sex workers are not allowed to have cars at all.http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/apr/03/nevada-prostitution-"The brothel owners are worse than any pimp. They abuse and imprison women and are fully protected by the state"Teri, prostitute. http://www.sexwork.com/legal/NevPimpHouses.htmlIf you believe their PR, Nevada's legal brothels are safe, healthy – even fun – places in which to work. So why do so many prostitutes tell such horrific tales of abuse?http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/07/usa.genderBut of course I guess in libertarian's fantasy world, protitution is all great because women chose it freely. You know. They enjoy being raped 30 times a day for the profit of abusive bosses with a contract that transform them into semi slaves. A brothel owner is somebody who, when it gets down to the very essence, is nothing more than a slave-ownerAssemblyman Bob L. Beers http://www.lvrj.com/news/9612332.html
Voluntary prostitution isn't rape. Calling it rape is an insult to anyone who has actually been raped before.
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Thing is, people in prostitution are being screwed right this second. Thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of prostitutes are in action right now. It's affecting absolutely no one apart from the people involved. I'm not affected at all, and yeah I feel sorry for some of them that hate their job, but I feel sorry for my mum who works 3 jobs and NEVER sits down. Like, if people have bad jobs then that's that.
Personally, I would never engage in prostitution, or have intercourse with one. Just my 2 cents.
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I was going to make a thread on this, but OP is far more comprehensive than I would have done. What do you folks think, if you haven't had your say already in this thread?
I see absolutely nothing wrong with it unless it is forced. I've seen people argue vehemently that the legalization of prostitution enables and encourages human trafficking. However, the evidence they presented did not seem final and conclusive.
There is a strong narrative (that I grew up with myself), that most prostitutes are desperate, abused, drug addicted, etc. And parallel to this is Johns being portrayed as always abusive, physically disgusting, and misogynistic. I've participated in a few online forums that had both providers and clients, and those stereotypes were the exception far more than the rule. True, those operating on the internet are probably more empowered and wealthy than street walkers, and yet it's enough for me to cast doubt on the exploitation narrative. Exploitation exists of course, but it's hard to find out conclusively what the actual prevalence is.
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On June 21 2015 09:36 Glowsphere wrote: I was going to make a thread on this, but OP is far more comprehensive than I would have done. What do you folks think, if you haven't had your say already in this thread?
I see absolutely nothing wrong with it unless it is forced. I've seen people argue vehemently that the legalization of prostitution enables and encourages human trafficking. However, the evidence they presented did not seem final and conclusive.
There is a strong narrative (that I grew up with myself), that most prostitutes are desperate, abused, drug addicted, etc. And parallel to this is Johns being portrayed as always abusive, physically disgusting, and misogynistic. I've participated in a few online forums that had both providers and clients, and those stereotypes were the exception far more than the rule. True, those operating on the internet are probably more empowered and wealthy than street walkers, and yet it's enough for me to cast doubt on the exploitation narrative. Exploitation exists of course, but it's hard to find out conclusively what the actual prevalence is.
Should just make brothels legal and regulate them. Sex is already treated like a commodity, so might as well monetize it.
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On June 21 2015 09:36 Glowsphere wrote: I was going to make a thread on this, but OP is far more comprehensive than I would have done. What do you folks think, if you haven't had your say already in this thread?
I see absolutely nothing wrong with it unless it is forced. I've seen people argue vehemently that the legalization of prostitution enables and encourages human trafficking. However, the evidence they presented did not seem final and conclusive.
There is a strong narrative (that I grew up with myself), that most prostitutes are desperate, abused, drug addicted, etc. And parallel to this is Johns being portrayed as always abusive, physically disgusting, and misogynistic. I've participated in a few online forums that had both providers and clients, and those stereotypes were the exception far more than the rule. True, those operating on the internet are probably more empowered and wealthy than street walkers, and yet it's enough for me to cast doubt on the exploitation narrative. Exploitation exists of course, but it's hard to find out conclusively what the actual prevalence is. The problem I've always had with that narrative is that almost every bad effect of prostitution would be overcome by legalization and regulation. The illegality of it makes it a much much more dangerous proposition than if it were just legalized and regulated. But religious groups and certain moronic feminists tend to have such an issue with it that politicians view this very real issue as too taboo to even touch. If any politician actually ran on a platform of legalization/regulation then they would get demonized by the media/enemies as someone who just wants to bang whores, ignoring the legitimate safety and societal reasons to legalize it which is really a damn shame.
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On June 21 2015 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2015 09:36 Glowsphere wrote: I was going to make a thread on this, but OP is far more comprehensive than I would have done. What do you folks think, if you haven't had your say already in this thread?
I see absolutely nothing wrong with it unless it is forced. I've seen people argue vehemently that the legalization of prostitution enables and encourages human trafficking. However, the evidence they presented did not seem final and conclusive.
There is a strong narrative (that I grew up with myself), that most prostitutes are desperate, abused, drug addicted, etc. And parallel to this is Johns being portrayed as always abusive, physically disgusting, and misogynistic. I've participated in a few online forums that had both providers and clients, and those stereotypes were the exception far more than the rule. True, those operating on the internet are probably more empowered and wealthy than street walkers, and yet it's enough for me to cast doubt on the exploitation narrative. Exploitation exists of course, but it's hard to find out conclusively what the actual prevalence is. The problem I've always had with that narrative is that almost every bad effect of prostitution would be overcome by legalization and regulation. The illegality of it makes it a much much more dangerous proposition than if it were just legalized and regulated. But religious groups and certain moronic feminists tend to have such an issue with it that politicians view this very real issue as too taboo to even touch. If any politician actually ran on a platform of legalization/regulation then they would get demonized by the media/enemies as someone who just wants to bang whores, ignoring the legitimate safety and societal reasons to legalize it which is really a damn shame.
That was my thinking as well, but someone on another forum once said that the Netherlands and Germany were having huge problems with human trafficking, and they posted a bunch of numbers. Others countered that the numbers were being inflated by groups whose funding and existence relies on high numbers of human trafficking victims. It was awhile ago so I forget what sources were being used. The funny thing is I've seen several escorts say they actually don't want prostitution legalized, because it will cut into their profits badly once the government is involved and taking a share.
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I'll preface by saying my opinion on this is heavily influenced by anecdotal experience. So, keep that in mind.
One of my ex-girlfriends was a prostitute for a few years (before I met her.) I met some of her friends who were also prostitutes. She was also a recovering heroin addict. Endemic among them was usually some sort of childhood or adolescent sexual abuse, followed by abandonment / running away, and then drug usage to cope with either past trauma or current prostitution.
My ex was diagnosed with PTSD and a mixed bag of personality disorders from narcissistic, histrionic, dependent, borderline, and anti-social disorders all under a personality disorder "not otherwise specified." A lot of the women I met were like my ex.
I think it should be legalized. The problem remains though that we don't have many programs in place to get them off drugs, which is tied in with it for many. Drugs are used to dissociate from the fact that they're selling themselves to people for money. Many of her friends become prostitutes to make enough money to buy the drug of their choice, or they got on drugs after they became one. It was soul crushingly cyclical. The money used to incarcerate them for prostitution could be used instead to fund programs to get them off drugs. That would be my personal hope.
As for whether or not prostitution is consensual and the morality of all that it's slippery. Being personally involved with a former prostitute I saw someone who had a hard time trying to adjust to a normal job, who felt that prostitution was gut wrenching but simple. Still, she was tortured by it. She felt she would never be normal. That sort of nihilism was rampant in her group. So while it is their body, I feel like the idea that it's psychologically healthy is the exception rather than the rule.
[Just for clarity, I know that this is anecdotal and personal and not a study on the effects and origins of prostitution in women.]
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On June 21 2015 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2015 09:36 Glowsphere wrote: I was going to make a thread on this, but OP is far more comprehensive than I would have done. What do you folks think, if you haven't had your say already in this thread?
I see absolutely nothing wrong with it unless it is forced. I've seen people argue vehemently that the legalization of prostitution enables and encourages human trafficking. However, the evidence they presented did not seem final and conclusive.
There is a strong narrative (that I grew up with myself), that most prostitutes are desperate, abused, drug addicted, etc. And parallel to this is Johns being portrayed as always abusive, physically disgusting, and misogynistic. I've participated in a few online forums that had both providers and clients, and those stereotypes were the exception far more than the rule. True, those operating on the internet are probably more empowered and wealthy than street walkers, and yet it's enough for me to cast doubt on the exploitation narrative. Exploitation exists of course, but it's hard to find out conclusively what the actual prevalence is. The problem I've always had with that narrative is that almost every bad effect of prostitution would be overcome by legalization and regulation. The illegality of it makes it a much much more dangerous proposition than if it were just legalized and regulated. But religious groups and certain moronic feminists tend to have such an issue with it that politicians view this very real issue as too taboo to even touch. If any politician actually ran on a platform of legalization/regulation then they would get demonized by the media/enemies as someone who just wants to bang whores, ignoring the legitimate safety and societal reasons to legalize it which is really a damn shame. This is a huge problem. Not even necessarily for running a platform of it, but just being able to have a sensible debate.
There are so many important issues that get drowned out by these histrionics. "Whore banger" as you say here, "junkies" on drug legalisation, "murderer" or "granny killer" for euthanasia. It's so tedious.
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