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On November 10 2012 05:34 fezvez wrote: I did not realized how unfair it was!
Burrow research allow ALL the zerg units to burrow!
Well, when you think about it, burrowed hydralisks are not exactly the most threatening army ever. If a cloaked banshee is efficient, it's because it can actually attack while being invisible. Most burrowed units can't attack, and have no "substantial" benefits apart from being invisible (except infestors, banelings, and with a research, roaches)
So, no, burrowing is fine.
We are talking about burrow movement. So mostly roaches and infestors. Both movements give substantial advantage if moved underground. I don't need to see burrowed hydras but to have at least a decent idea where the freaking infestor is that throws eggs in my base every 2 minutes would be nice.
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People are just looking to nerf anything about the infestor now. I don't think there's anything wrong with the animation of burrow movement people are just never expecting it from a zerg.
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notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot
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On November 10 2012 05:55 CeriseCherries wrote: notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot banshees run out of energy. roaches don't. and now?
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On November 10 2012 04:45 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 04:43 Blezza wrote: Burrow is just a completely different thing, all zerg ground units but two cant move while burrowed and bear in mind that any burrowed unit is a sitting duck atleast DT's or banshees can run away. Burrow is completely different from other races cloacking, thats why its like that Note that no one has a problem with burrowed banes or zerglings being virtually invisible, it's precisely Infestors that are mostly the problem here. Unloading a ton of ITs does much more damage than a small group of banshees or DTs, and doesn't even cost gas.
Huh? The cost is in the infestor, just like DT's don't cost gas other then their initial resource amount. And if prepared for, burrowed infestors are as useful as DTs with detection around. People just don't prepare for them right now. Also burrowed infestors cannot attack enemy units with a passive non-energy based attack like DTs and Banshees can. When it comes down to it, one way isnt right and one wrong. Both are simply different.
And yes I think burrowed infestors need to be *slightly* more visible.
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On November 10 2012 05:56 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:55 CeriseCherries wrote: notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot banshees run out of energy. roaches don't. and now? So we concluded that different units can do different things. Thread closed i guess.
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Burrowed units can't attack. Cloaked units can attack. Thats basically the end of the argument. You're comparing apples and oranges just because they are fruit.
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On November 10 2012 06:03 zJayy962 wrote: Burrowed units can't attack. Cloaked units can attack. Thats basically the end of the argument. You're comparing apples and oranges just because they are fruit. You've got to be kidding me. They are NOTHING except you need detection to see either. ANYONE can spot a cloaked unit unless they are blind. It's near impossible to see moving burrowed units in the heat of the game. On topic, now that I think about it, I don't even understand why infestors can move while burrowed. Wtf?
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I think it's sad to infestor burrow movement into a siege line with low risk high reward and blow up tanks.
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On November 10 2012 06:00 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:56 Hryul wrote:On November 10 2012 05:55 CeriseCherries wrote: notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot banshees run out of energy. roaches don't. and now? So we concluded that different units can do different things. Thread closed i guess. I still fell like burrowed moving units should be more visible. Esp PvZ where unburrowing roaches "ontop" of sentries is quite a gamechanger.
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I also think it's strange that the burrow movement is harder to see than cloaked units. I think it's cool they use a different animation, but why is it so hard to spot? Really interested in Dustin Browder's vision on this.
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The OP has noticed an asymmetry, but how exactly is this a problem? Sure, you can cherry pick a couple examples (from games which were *gasp* fun to watch) but does anyone feel like rampant zerg borrow usage is breaking ESPORTS? If anything, this thread should be a zerg tip thread where zergs can learn to play a style other than 4-6 infestors into broodlord cloud.
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On November 10 2012 06:17 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:00 Assirra wrote:On November 10 2012 05:56 Hryul wrote:On November 10 2012 05:55 CeriseCherries wrote: notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot banshees run out of energy. roaches don't. and now? So we concluded that different units can do different things. Thread closed i guess. I still fell like burrowed moving units should be more visible. Esp PvZ where unburrowing roaches "ontop" of sentries is quite a gamechanger. Get an observer out then? This is like complaining that warped in dt's destroy your hatchery/drones/army cause you have no detection.
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I still fell like burrowed moving units should be more visible. Esp PvZ where unburrowing roaches "ontop" of sentries is quite a gamechanger.
Yeah abilities should not really create any difference in the game.
I think it's sad to infestor burrow movement into a siege line with low risk high reward and blow up tanks.
Yeah these low risk high reward actions like siege are really mucking up the game play.
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On November 10 2012 05:55 CeriseCherries wrote: notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot Cloak for a Banshee is temporary//Whereas, borrow is forever.
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I play terran, so obviously my opinion is strictly about TvZ. About roaches, if i only lost against zerg when they use burrowed roaches, i probably would have won a couple mlgs by now, i mean, no1 does that really, so i dont think it's a problem. About infestors, i dont think that not seeing burrowed infestors moving to bases is problematic 1. you should have atleast a turret at every base in later stages of the game (meaning you're on 3 or more bases) 2. you can see the infested terran eggs, and can avoid them without taking pretty much any damage with good map awareness. 3. they move very slow, so for the zerg it's a lot more time to get them in good position, then it is for terran or protoss with their cloaked units, so it they were as visible, that was pretty unfair. The only thing with burrowed infestors that i think is a "problem", is when the zerg uses one to absorb tank shots before he engages the terran. The problem in my opinon is, that they are basicly impossible to spot, so unless you get off a lucky scan, they will have a huge advantage in the fight. And even if you get lucky or have the sharpest eyes and scan them, they lost only 1 infestor, so they probably have like 8-10 remaining, so it's very low risk, very high reward But this whole situation is much more caused by the raven being so underused, and that is cuz it's so underpowered.
So my conclusion is that burrow should stay the way it is, but ravens should be buffed/redesigned. I WANT 'EM SCIENCE VESSELS BACK!
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On November 10 2012 06:25 Analytical Genius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:55 CeriseCherries wrote: notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot Cloak for a Banshee is temporary//Whereas, borrow is forever.
Yeah it's the burrowed forever roaches that are most dangerous.
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Entire argument aside, this poll is CLOSE lol
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On November 10 2012 06:28 orBitual wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:25 Analytical Genius wrote:On November 10 2012 05:55 CeriseCherries wrote: notice that the banshee can attack while cloaked while burrowed roaches cannot Cloak for a Banshee is temporary//Whereas, borrow is forever. Yeah it's the burrowed forever roaches that are most dangerous. Borrowed roaches can give you vision, deny expansions, and force Terran to waste a scan.
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You can't just look at the actual upgrade time, you have to look at the whole tech path leading up to it. The tech prerequisites for protoss and terran facilitate an attack much faster with cloaked units. It isn't until 10+ minutes that you can have burrowed units at your opponent's base in a standard game. Scouting and having detection in time will prevent you from taking any damage.
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