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On June 23 2015 16:47 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 16:34 xM(Z wrote: hmm, i got one. the only reason i'd support a legalization of prostitution would be if it will also come with "the quota" applied to its businesses/employees and such. (you know, when it's all about equality, the 50/50 male/female should be mandatory) What? Sorry, but why? When we look at construction jobs, we don't have quotas, when we have servers, we don't have quotas... Women have shown much less interest than men certain fields. Most male sex workers are for the gay community. Usually the only thing that women require is like someone to go to a wedding with and other social companionship and whatnot. A year or two back, I read this blog of a guy, who worked as a prostitute for several years, and in all his life, he only had one or two women. Yes, I know at times it may look like women get the better deal of out this gender equality stuff, but I think it's sorting itself out. Men will always make more money than women, because biologically they are more competitive, take more risks, and prefer to work in jobs that are more dangerous and stressful. I don't have a specific source now, but it's things I've had discussed in some of my previous classes like behavioral and experimental economics, as well as personal research. If you disagree with this statement, you are free to find me a reputable paper. Anyway, the women who choose to live the life of potentially being undesirable to men, potentially being outcast by their friends for what their doing, as well as working in a more dangerous and contractor type position than the average woman deserve a pay premium. Construction companies discriminate towards the favor of men due to physical strength, so having an industry for women (which already exists), shouldn't cause any harm? And legalization of sex industry would also likely lower prices, which would bring benefit to the male population. i appreciate your somewhat detailed response to what was meant to be an assholery, that would appease in some way my misogynistic side (beating women at their own game, yea!).
i would still not support a legalization of this. i see it way closer to organ selling. you are selling the sex, literally. you're not cutting it off or anything but it's way up there. sure, the way you talk about it, wrap it in layers of intimacy, present it as a cure to loneliness; or how it's - where pure desire meets kindness, understanding, acceptance ... i don't know man, i'm not buying it. without the sex you have nothing to sell, right?; so everything you build around it it's just smoke designed to make the dirty part of it all, less strenuous to a 1st world mind. (i read and i'm aware of your "only needed for company, no sex involved" angle, but that is an exception to the rule and while yea that could exist, you can't use it as an argument when you're trying to sort out rules for the other 99% of it)
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On June 23 2015 16:41 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 11:03 G5 wrote:On June 23 2015 05:51 soul55555 wrote:On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses. This statement made is one of opinion and not fact. You, like far too many others, throws out grand proclamations without bothering to cite any source. Actually, why don't you go find me some statistics that say most female prostitutes freely go into it and are happy to stay in it and enjoyed all the sex and money a glamorous life of prostitution gave them. How about articles written by actual porn stars and escorts themselves? Porn stars are essentially escorts who get paid, the main difference being they are on camera. And much like prostitutes, the stereotype is that all porn girls are drug addicts with daddy issues. Not saying that doesn't happen, but painting them all with that same brush is sensationalist. Girls like Jenna Haze and Jenna Jameson have gone on to build businesses of their own. Nina Hartley, whose been around forever, makes educational sex videos. Trying to paint them all as victims is demeaning to women. God forbid there are women who actually enjoy sex and can make a profit off it and do what they want with their bodies. Here is the article I was referring to earlier by an escort who made tons of money: https://medium.com/matter/sex-is-sex-but-money-is-money-e7c10091713fShow nested quote + I don’t hate men. I am not a victim of child trafficking. I have never been raped, or drugged, or done porn. I’m not an addict. I never had a pimp. I don’t suffer from what my American girlfriends call “daddy issues” and what my shrink refers to as “malformed identity centering on early childhood abandonment.”
OH BUT SHE MUST BE LYING RIGHT. HOW DARE SHE! another one: NSFW pictures on the link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2778187/High-class-escort-Summer-Knight-earns-eye-watering-10-000-week-selling-sex-fund-travels-world.html Show nested quote + She added: 'Sex work means I can afford Sydney, it's expensive but I love the lifestyle and I earn enough that it means I can work half the year and travel the rest. 'I have always loved travel, learning about new food, languages and customs. There is something really romantic about being totally alone in a place where nobody knows you or anything about your past, a totally fresh start.' A former dancer, Summer (her work name) first dabbled in the sex trade in Liverpool three years ago. 'I'm rebellious by nature and always knew from the age of 12 I would try it,' she explained.
OH BUT SHE MUST BE A LYING WHORE TOO, HOW DARE SHE TRAVEL THE WORLD AND ENJOY A GOOD LIFE
I read some of the articles, they were quite interesting, but I'm not sure why you think a few happy go lucky anecdotes matter in the face of the fact that overwhelmingly, across the globe, and as shown in this thread, prostitution is not voluntary. Where it is legal the rates of trafficing and violence goes up, not down. I simply think it's worth it to inconvienence a couple of rich ex models if that helps preventing more 16 year old slaves being force fed heroin just to statisfy some urge people have. That's the consequentialist argument.
On a more basic level, the things we allow to be for sale says something about the soceity we want. Wealth and income disparity doesnt really matter terribly if all money buys you is a nicer car and fancier vaccations. But if you also get to pay for political influence, education, healthcare, sex... Or put differently, in a stratified society, putting a price on something gives the wealthy power of the poor with respect to that thing. For example there is a reason we don't allow healthy people to sell their hearts. Because when money can buy your family not just a better car, but health and prospects, then suddenly giving your life in exchange for money becomes a deal some people would see themselves mandated to take.
To me selling sex is a less extreme version of this. To most people (I gladly admit, not all) sex and your own body is intimatly associated with integrity, joy, privacy... In a stratified society, to put a price on such things is to essentially mandate sections of the population to give them up. And I find that abhorent.
edit: person above went totally ninja on me re: the organ donation analogy ^^
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On June 23 2015 17:36 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 16:41 fishjie wrote:On June 23 2015 11:03 G5 wrote:On June 23 2015 05:51 soul55555 wrote:On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses. This statement made is one of opinion and not fact. You, like far too many others, throws out grand proclamations without bothering to cite any source. Actually, why don't you go find me some statistics that say most female prostitutes freely go into it and are happy to stay in it and enjoyed all the sex and money a glamorous life of prostitution gave them. How about articles written by actual porn stars and escorts themselves? Porn stars are essentially escorts who get paid, the main difference being they are on camera. And much like prostitutes, the stereotype is that all porn girls are drug addicts with daddy issues. Not saying that doesn't happen, but painting them all with that same brush is sensationalist. Girls like Jenna Haze and Jenna Jameson have gone on to build businesses of their own. Nina Hartley, whose been around forever, makes educational sex videos. Trying to paint them all as victims is demeaning to women. God forbid there are women who actually enjoy sex and can make a profit off it and do what they want with their bodies. Here is the article I was referring to earlier by an escort who made tons of money: https://medium.com/matter/sex-is-sex-but-money-is-money-e7c10091713f I don’t hate men. I am not a victim of child trafficking. I have never been raped, or drugged, or done porn. I’m not an addict. I never had a pimp. I don’t suffer from what my American girlfriends call “daddy issues” and what my shrink refers to as “malformed identity centering on early childhood abandonment.”
OH BUT SHE MUST BE LYING RIGHT. HOW DARE SHE! another one: NSFW pictures on the link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2778187/High-class-escort-Summer-Knight-earns-eye-watering-10-000-week-selling-sex-fund-travels-world.html She added: 'Sex work means I can afford Sydney, it's expensive but I love the lifestyle and I earn enough that it means I can work half the year and travel the rest. 'I have always loved travel, learning about new food, languages and customs. There is something really romantic about being totally alone in a place where nobody knows you or anything about your past, a totally fresh start.' A former dancer, Summer (her work name) first dabbled in the sex trade in Liverpool three years ago. 'I'm rebellious by nature and always knew from the age of 12 I would try it,' she explained.
OH BUT SHE MUST BE A LYING WHORE TOO, HOW DARE SHE TRAVEL THE WORLD AND ENJOY A GOOD LIFE I read some of the articles, they were quite interesting, but I'm not sure why you think a few happy go lucky anecdotes matter in the face of the fact that overwhelmingly, across the globe, and as shown in this thread, prostitution is not voluntary. Where it is legal the rates of trafficing and violence goes up, not down. I simply think it's worth it to inconvienence a couple of rich ex models if that helps preventing more 16 year old slaves being force fed heroin just to statisfy some urge people have. That's the consequentialist argument. On a more basic level, the things we allow to be for sale says something about the soceity we want. Wealth and income disparity doesnt really matter terribly if all money buys you is a nicer car and fancier vaccations. But if you also get to pay for political influence, education, healthcare, sex... Or put differently, in a stratified society, putting a price on something gives the wealthy power of the poor with respect to that thing. For example there is a reason we don't allow healthy people to sell their hearts. Because when money can buy your family not just a better car, but health and prospects, then suddenly giving your life in exchange for money becomes a deal some people would see themselves mandated to take. To me selling sex is a less extreme version of this. To most people (I gladly admit, not all) sex and your own body is intimatly associated with integrity, joy, privacy... In a stratified society, to put a price on such things is to essentially mandate sections of the population to give them up. And I find that abhorent. edit: person above went totally ninja on me re: the organ donation analogy ^^
Did you happen to have any articles where it wasn't a third world nation, or they didn't have a huge drug problem? Drugs and poverty force people into a lot of stuff, and illegal immigrants are forced into a lot more fields than just prostitution. There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with prostituion, but instead with thr climate around it. Legalization and regulation helps because it takes away business from gangs and pimps. Regulation also makes kit cleaner and safer for both sides. Someone also mentioned that government could make money off of it through with taxes.
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On June 23 2015 17:36 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 16:41 fishjie wrote:On June 23 2015 11:03 G5 wrote:On June 23 2015 05:51 soul55555 wrote:On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses. This statement made is one of opinion and not fact. You, like far too many others, throws out grand proclamations without bothering to cite any source. Actually, why don't you go find me some statistics that say most female prostitutes freely go into it and are happy to stay in it and enjoyed all the sex and money a glamorous life of prostitution gave them. How about articles written by actual porn stars and escorts themselves? Porn stars are essentially escorts who get paid, the main difference being they are on camera. And much like prostitutes, the stereotype is that all porn girls are drug addicts with daddy issues. Not saying that doesn't happen, but painting them all with that same brush is sensationalist. Girls like Jenna Haze and Jenna Jameson have gone on to build businesses of their own. Nina Hartley, whose been around forever, makes educational sex videos. Trying to paint them all as victims is demeaning to women. God forbid there are women who actually enjoy sex and can make a profit off it and do what they want with their bodies. Here is the article I was referring to earlier by an escort who made tons of money: https://medium.com/matter/sex-is-sex-but-money-is-money-e7c10091713f I don’t hate men. I am not a victim of child trafficking. I have never been raped, or drugged, or done porn. I’m not an addict. I never had a pimp. I don’t suffer from what my American girlfriends call “daddy issues” and what my shrink refers to as “malformed identity centering on early childhood abandonment.”
OH BUT SHE MUST BE LYING RIGHT. HOW DARE SHE! another one: NSFW pictures on the link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2778187/High-class-escort-Summer-Knight-earns-eye-watering-10-000-week-selling-sex-fund-travels-world.html She added: 'Sex work means I can afford Sydney, it's expensive but I love the lifestyle and I earn enough that it means I can work half the year and travel the rest. 'I have always loved travel, learning about new food, languages and customs. There is something really romantic about being totally alone in a place where nobody knows you or anything about your past, a totally fresh start.' A former dancer, Summer (her work name) first dabbled in the sex trade in Liverpool three years ago. 'I'm rebellious by nature and always knew from the age of 12 I would try it,' she explained.
OH BUT SHE MUST BE A LYING WHORE TOO, HOW DARE SHE TRAVEL THE WORLD AND ENJOY A GOOD LIFE I read some of the articles, they were quite interesting, but I'm not sure why you think a few happy go lucky anecdotes matter in the face of the fact that overwhelmingly, across the globe, and as shown in this thread, prostitution is not voluntary. Where it is legal the rates of trafficing and violence goes up, not down. I simply think it's worth it to inconvienence a couple of rich ex models if that helps preventing more 16 year old slaves being force fed heroin just to statisfy some urge people have. That's the consequentialist argument. On a more basic level, the things we allow to be for sale says something about the soceity we want. Wealth and income disparity doesnt really matter terribly if all money buys you is a nicer car and fancier vaccations. But if you also get to pay for political influence, education, healthcare, sex... Or put differently, in a stratified society, putting a price on something gives the wealthy power of the poor with respect to that thing. For example there is a reason we don't allow healthy people to sell their hearts. Because when money can buy your family not just a better car, but health and prospects, then suddenly giving your life in exchange for money becomes a deal some people would see themselves mandated to take. To me selling sex is a less extreme version of this. To most people (I gladly admit, not all) sex and your own body is intimatly associated with integrity, joy, privacy... In a stratified society, to put a price on such things is to essentially mandate sections of the population to give them up. And I find that abhorent. edit: person above went totally ninja on me re: the organ donation analogy ^^
I find nothing morally wrong with selling one's own body, as long as its a decision not made under coercion. What's wrong is human sex trafficking and slavery. This is why Eliot Spitzer (who got in trouble for seeing an escort and yet going after prostitutes as an attorney general) was not a hypocrite. The girl he was seeing was making a ton of money and was in no way coerced.
Maybe legalizing all prostitution isn't the correct answer, given the increase of trafficking as a result. Going after pimps, shutting down brothels that degrade women, and getting street walkers help instead of treating them as criminals might be better policies. There are definitely many girls who do quite well for themselves, and are not "victims". If I could make ten grand in one hour, I'd take it. Unfortunately, I'm a dude, and male prostitutes aren't in high demand. But you bet your ass I'd take a rich sugar momma, as would a lot of guys. A lot of these women who are being exploited in brothels were hoping for a life like that. With the right policy that can happen. High end prostitution is basically a modern version of a no strings attached discrete mistress. Gold digging isn't illegal, and its essentially selling your body. Porn isn't illegal, and it IS selling your body on camera. So there is no logical reason for prostitution to be illegal either.
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I think Klackon and xM(Z both offered pretty good arguments in response to what I was arguing.
On June 23 2015 17:17 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 16:47 FiWiFaKi wrote:On June 23 2015 16:34 xM(Z wrote: hmm, i got one. the only reason i'd support a legalization of prostitution would be if it will also come with "the quota" applied to its businesses/employees and such. (you know, when it's all about equality, the 50/50 male/female should be mandatory) What? Sorry, but why? When we look at construction jobs, we don't have quotas, when we have servers, we don't have quotas... Women have shown much less interest than men certain fields. Most male sex workers are for the gay community. Usually the only thing that women require is like someone to go to a wedding with and other social companionship and whatnot. A year or two back, I read this blog of a guy, who worked as a prostitute for several years, and in all his life, he only had one or two women. Yes, I know at times it may look like women get the better deal of out this gender equality stuff, but I think it's sorting itself out. Men will always make more money than women, because biologically they are more competitive, take more risks, and prefer to work in jobs that are more dangerous and stressful. I don't have a specific source now, but it's things I've had discussed in some of my previous classes like behavioral and experimental economics, as well as personal research. If you disagree with this statement, you are free to find me a reputable paper. Anyway, the women who choose to live the life of potentially being undesirable to men, potentially being outcast by their friends for what their doing, as well as working in a more dangerous and contractor type position than the average woman deserve a pay premium. Construction companies discriminate towards the favor of men due to physical strength, so having an industry for women (which already exists), shouldn't cause any harm? And legalization of sex industry would also likely lower prices, which would bring benefit to the male population. i appreciate your somewhat detailed response to what was meant to be an assholery, that would appease in some way my misogynistic side (beating women at their own game, yea!). i would still not support a legalization of this. i see it way closer to organ selling. you are selling the sex, literally. you're not cutting it off or anything but it's way up there. sure, the way you talk about it, wrap it in layers of intimacy, present it as a cure to loneliness; or how it's - where pure desire meets kindness, understanding, acceptance ... i don't know man, i'm not buying it. without the sex you have nothing to sell, right?; so everything you build around it it's just smoke designed to make the dirty part of it all, less strenuous to a 1st world mind. (i read and i'm aware of your "only needed for company, no sex involved" angle, but that is an exception to the rule and while yea that could exist, you can't use it as an argument when you're trying to sort out rules for the other 99% of it)
I did not mean to layer it in intimacy - yes, at the end of the day, it is about the sex. Lets no confuse the desire for a vagina and sex though, if the only thing you're after is some moist feeling of a vagina, you could use your hand, have a fancy masturbation tool, etc. I'd imagine a sex worker that simply lays there and does and says nothing isn't very successful... So use your imagination why someone would hire a hooker, whether that's to defeat social stigma of being a virgin, feel powerful, fulfill the desire of being inside a woman, wanting to hear the moans, whatever reasons.
For the reason above, I'd look at it more of being a service than a rental of a vagina (or dick). Our economy is built on the premise of renting your body to perform services for others, there are some that require you to invest yourself into them little, and some a lot. For example, if your an accountant, you can be quite physically and mentally disconnected from your work. On the other hand, if you're a doctor, a server, a pole dancer, or one of those people that go swimming in poop to do mechanical inspections, you are naturally closer to what you do. You can argue that you give up some of those conventional work freedoms or whatever, because you are asked of things that in a "normal" job you wouldn't be, but they are things that need to be done, and things that people will want to do given that there is a pay premium. I would say it's much the same for sex work.
I'm from a really multicultural part of the world, so things often need to be sugar coated a little bit because someone is bound to get pissed off about everything. So if it's immoral to you, fine. But what if the other 50% of the population (theoretical numbers) have no issue with it, and think it's fully moral? Why would you prevent these people from doing it if the people you hang out with and your friends would be unaffected?
The argument is that more legalization is more human trafficking, and that is a real argument for why to not legalize it, as it would increase dangers to the population even if you are not a part of the industry itself. However, I think a lot of it may be due to implementation, and like pointed out before, potentially being third world countries or something like that. As long as the choice isn't sex work or poverty, I believe the risks of human trafficking are greatly reduced. Not to mention, if it wasn't such a difficult topic to discuss in society, we could make sure that parties aren't being instead of taken advantage of, instead of "They're doing illegal shit, why should we care what's going on there?", much like the US does with it's prison population (and to an extent other western countries).
On June 23 2015 17:36 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 16:41 fishjie wrote:On June 23 2015 11:03 G5 wrote:On June 23 2015 05:51 soul55555 wrote:On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses. This statement made is one of opinion and not fact. You, like far too many others, throws out grand proclamations without bothering to cite any source. Actually, why don't you go find me some statistics that say most female prostitutes freely go into it and are happy to stay in it and enjoyed all the sex and money a glamorous life of prostitution gave them. How about articles written by actual porn stars and escorts themselves? Porn stars are essentially escorts who get paid, the main difference being they are on camera. And much like prostitutes, the stereotype is that all porn girls are drug addicts with daddy issues. Not saying that doesn't happen, but painting them all with that same brush is sensationalist. Girls like Jenna Haze and Jenna Jameson have gone on to build businesses of their own. Nina Hartley, whose been around forever, makes educational sex videos. Trying to paint them all as victims is demeaning to women. God forbid there are women who actually enjoy sex and can make a profit off it and do what they want with their bodies. Here is the article I was referring to earlier by an escort who made tons of money: https://medium.com/matter/sex-is-sex-but-money-is-money-e7c10091713f I don’t hate men. I am not a victim of child trafficking. I have never been raped, or drugged, or done porn. I’m not an addict. I never had a pimp. I don’t suffer from what my American girlfriends call “daddy issues” and what my shrink refers to as “malformed identity centering on early childhood abandonment.”
OH BUT SHE MUST BE LYING RIGHT. HOW DARE SHE! another one: NSFW pictures on the link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2778187/High-class-escort-Summer-Knight-earns-eye-watering-10-000-week-selling-sex-fund-travels-world.html She added: 'Sex work means I can afford Sydney, it's expensive but I love the lifestyle and I earn enough that it means I can work half the year and travel the rest. 'I have always loved travel, learning about new food, languages and customs. There is something really romantic about being totally alone in a place where nobody knows you or anything about your past, a totally fresh start.' A former dancer, Summer (her work name) first dabbled in the sex trade in Liverpool three years ago. 'I'm rebellious by nature and always knew from the age of 12 I would try it,' she explained.
OH BUT SHE MUST BE A LYING WHORE TOO, HOW DARE SHE TRAVEL THE WORLD AND ENJOY A GOOD LIFE I read some of the articles, they were quite interesting, but I'm not sure why you think a few happy go lucky anecdotes matter in the face of the fact that overwhelmingly, across the globe, and as shown in this thread, prostitution is not voluntary. Where it is legal the rates of trafficing and violence goes up, not down. I simply think it's worth it to inconvienence a couple of rich ex models if that helps preventing more 16 year old slaves being force fed heroin just to statisfy some urge people have. That's the consequentialist argument. On a more basic level, the things we allow to be for sale says something about the soceity we want. Wealth and income disparity doesnt really matter terribly if all money buys you is a nicer car and fancier vaccations. But if you also get to pay for political influence, education, healthcare, sex... Or put differently, in a stratified society, putting a price on something gives the wealthy power of the poor with respect to that thing. For example there is a reason we don't allow healthy people to sell their hearts. Because when money can buy your family not just a better car, but health and prospects, then suddenly giving your life in exchange for money becomes a deal some people would see themselves mandated to take. To me selling sex is a less extreme version of this. To most people (I gladly admit, not all) sex and your own body is intimatly associated with integrity, joy, privacy... In a stratified society, to put a price on such things is to essentially mandate sections of the population to give them up. And I find that abhorent. edit: person above went totally ninja on me re: the organ donation analogy ^^
I like most of what you said, so I'll just focus on the points I disagree with.
In the first paragraph, before we immediately jump to the conclusion that more legalization = more trafficking, maybe more time should be spent trying to improve the system to prevent this. I haven't done my research on this topic specifically, but I think this can be mostly prevented. Next, you're not simply inconveniencing a few rich ex-models, you're inconveniencing the many people who would like these services, as well as the women that would like to make money in this way. You're also inconveniencing the government not receiving any income tax from the people working in prostitution, as well as the women who are currently working in a black market in more dangerous conditions than otherwise.
I really like your second paragraph, it's just a nice philosophical thing I agree with it. However, a better way to deal with wealth and income disparity (if it's something you believe is bad), is welfare and a progressive tax system, tax breaks for families, etc... Instead of what you're proposing, which is just don't let rich people buy anything besides improved versions of what the poor people buy.
We should as a society agree what is dangerous to be sold (so guns, dangerous chemicals, food with low health standards, dangerous toys, or things that have a high potential of hurting people besides the user), and we don't sell those things. We also don't allow certain things, because most of society believes it's immoral and not right for people to be doing, whether that's drugs, necrophilia, suicide, euthanasia, etc. But the rest is fair game.
For example, a "rich" person is able to buy a house so he has more privacy, a rich person is able to buy a car to he can get to places quicker. A rich person is able to buy a cleaning lady so he doesn't have to do house chores, or he's able to buy a gym membership, hygiene products, etc so he's able to look better than that homeless bum. The poor person is still able to orgasm, the poor person is still able to find a girlfriend... The rich person certainly receives a benefit, but I wouldn't say it's any larger than what I listed prior. I agree that certain things, money should not be able to buy, as it would defeat the pillars of our society - so like buying the law, or political power, or essentially buying slaves (the sex work or poverty example I gave)... But so long as the woman has an alternative, it doesn't break any "fundamental human rights".
Like you said, to some people, their body is very special, and culturally or morally it's a right that you should fundamentally have. But the people who value having some more money so they can go on more vacation, or eat better food in exchange for temporarily giving up some of their rights to their body willingly, why not? The crucial thing is that the freedom of choice about entering sex work remains.
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That is one big pile of complete bullshit that you just wrote there.
You have no clue at all how these things work in the real world. Am not even gonna argue as it will be pointless.
User was warned for this post
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The reason why I have never used prostitutes is because of fear of HIV/AIDS. You never know if a prostitute has HIV/AIDS, so I can't believe people still use prostitutes.
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On June 25 2015 20:49 RapidTiger wrote: The reason why I have never used prostitutes is because of fear of HIV/AIDS. You never know if a prostitute has HIV/AIDS, so I can't believe people still use prostitutes.
I know right? Why use a prostitute when you can just use a girl from a bar? They're WAY cleaner.
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On June 23 2015 16:41 fishjie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 11:03 G5 wrote:On June 23 2015 05:51 soul55555 wrote:On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses. This statement made is one of opinion and not fact. You, like far too many others, throws out grand proclamations without bothering to cite any source. Actually, why don't you go find me some statistics that say most female prostitutes freely go into it and are happy to stay in it and enjoyed all the sex and money a glamorous life of prostitution gave them. How about articles written by actual porn stars and escorts themselves? Porn stars are essentially escorts who get paid, the main difference being they are on camera. And much like prostitutes, the stereotype is that all porn girls are drug addicts with daddy issues. Not saying that doesn't happen, but painting them all with that same brush is sensationalist. Girls like Jenna Haze and Jenna Jameson have gone on to build businesses of their own. Nina Hartley, whose been around forever, makes educational sex videos. Trying to paint them all as victims is demeaning to women. God forbid there are women who actually enjoy sex and can make a profit off it and do what they want with their bodies. Here is the article I was referring to earlier by an escort who made tons of money: https://medium.com/matter/sex-is-sex-but-money-is-money-e7c10091713fShow nested quote + I don’t hate men. I am not a victim of child trafficking. I have never been raped, or drugged, or done porn. I’m not an addict. I never had a pimp. I don’t suffer from what my American girlfriends call “daddy issues” and what my shrink refers to as “malformed identity centering on early childhood abandonment.”
OH BUT SHE MUST BE LYING RIGHT. HOW DARE SHE! another one: NSFW pictures on the link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2778187/High-class-escort-Summer-Knight-earns-eye-watering-10-000-week-selling-sex-fund-travels-world.html Show nested quote + She added: 'Sex work means I can afford Sydney, it's expensive but I love the lifestyle and I earn enough that it means I can work half the year and travel the rest. 'I have always loved travel, learning about new food, languages and customs. There is something really romantic about being totally alone in a place where nobody knows you or anything about your past, a totally fresh start.' A former dancer, Summer (her work name) first dabbled in the sex trade in Liverpool three years ago. 'I'm rebellious by nature and always knew from the age of 12 I would try it,' she explained.
OH BUT SHE MUST BE A LYING WHORE TOO, HOW DARE SHE TRAVEL THE WORLD AND ENJOY A GOOD LIFE
Cherry picking a few girls that got into it freely/enjoyed it is hardly a statistic. Do you actually know what a statistic is? Show me the numbers that back your argument or stop arguing it.
P.S. The delivery on what you wrote is laughable lol
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On June 25 2015 20:49 RapidTiger wrote: The reason why I have never used prostitutes is because of fear of HIV/AIDS. You never know if a prostitute has HIV/AIDS, so I can't believe people still use prostitutes. in Nevada, there hasn't been a single case ever
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There is a red light district 100 meters from where I live and my impression is that these people are not that happy. There are often groups of hooligans hanging around leering at the girls, you also hear reports of drug addiction and the fact that most of them are from Eastern Europe.
I don't think people with an education and a choice want to become prostitutes. I'm sure you can find a handful of women that enjoy the life of an escort or dancer or whatever, but there is a darker undercurrent. Personally I can't understand why foreign prostitutes are allowed in this country, it just seems an invitation for this seedy, coercive system.
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Legalisation can work if it's done right:
It has been ten years since New Zealand parliamentarians, after considerable debate and encouragement from sex workers, mainstream women’s organizations, and public health advocates, voted for changes to the laws governing prostitution.
The Prostitution Reform Act 2003 (PRA) heralded a significant turnaround in approach, repealing laws that had been used to criminalize sex workers and created circumstances that contributed to their vulnerability. Rather, the aim of the PRA is to decriminalize prostitution and safeguard the human rights of sex workers, while protecting them from exploitation. The law also states the importance of promoting sex workers’ welfare and occupational safety and health, and that the law be conducive to public health. In addition, it prohibits the “use in prostitution” of people who are under 18.
“Low-Key” Decriminalization
Today, as it was before the change in law, sex work is widespread, and mostly occurs in a low-key way in minor towns and in every major city throughout New Zealand. Yet the industry has not grown in the last ten years. It's not obvious that the sex trade has been decriminalized: brothels are not on every corner, nor are “sex for sale” signs flashing at the unsuspecting.
However, inside, brothels now display safer-sex information prominently. Sex workers are allowed to work in managed brothels with no size restrictions, or to collectivize and work as equals with colleagues, or to work alone. Home occupation and standard business zoning laws generally apply — although there have been some city councils who have been successfully challenged in court for the development of unreasonable bylaws restricting the location of brothels. Street-based sex work is allowed and there is no regime of licensing or mandatory testing of individual sex workers.
Sex worker registers are a thing of the past, in recognition that it is not sex workers who need monitoring as criminals. However, operators of brothels, and anyone involved in directing sex workers for profit, are required to have an operator’s certificate. These certificates are issued by the District Court and withheld from people with specific convictions, including those for violence.
The PRA enables sex workers to reach out for help and access justice if necessary. While the police were previously the enforcers of anti-prostitution laws, they are now widely regarded by sex workers as their allies in the prevention of violence. The police, too, report the effectiveness of decriminalization in building non-coercive relationships with sex workers as a violence prevention strategy.
While decriminalization has not stopped all violence — as no law alone could achieve this in any context — there is overwhelming evidence that decriminalization has enabled sex workers to decline contact with people they perceive to be potentially dangerous clients.
The law also explicitly reinforces the right of sex workers to refuse to continue providing services to any client, to prevent the confusion that sex workers give away this right as contractors to brothel operators. The government has published guidelines with input from sex workers that expands on this, and which address issues of security and safety in the context of sex work.
Anti-Trafficking Tool
Decriminalization of sex work creates many opportunities to head off exploitation, and is significant as an anti-trafficking tool – Immigration New Zealand continues to report that they have found no instances of sex trafficking in New Zealand, despite their determined forays into the migrant sector of the sex industry.
Reports that large numbers of youth are now trafficked by gangs into prostitution are not backed up by police evidence. Government and community-based agencies, including peer-based sex worker groups, collaborate to assist youth who are involved in sex work. This collaboration would not have occurred prior to decriminalization due to mistrust of the police.
Decriminalization has also created higher standards and expectations in relation to occupational safety and health. Sex workers, and even their clients, will blow the whistle if they suspect something in the work place that doesn’t look quite right.
There have been mundane complaints about withheld money by clients or brothel operators, which have been resolved in an easy to access Disputes Tribunal setting in the local district court (though there is an arbitrator rather than a judge, and no lawyers are present), to more serious reports of underage sex workers being illegally hired, resulting in jail time for brothel operators. Sex workers have utilized their right to combat workplace sexual harassment from their bosses using human rights legislation; a right unimaginable prior to decriminalization and probably unobtainable while brothel-keeping was illegal.
Better Communication
There is also a freeing up of communication. Prior to the law change, the sex industry was hidden under a range of misleading identities, such as escort agencies and massage parlors, which had to pretend that commercial sex was not their main purpose. This distancing inhibited the health promotion strategies that sex workers and brothel operators now use to build a strong culture of safer sex.
Today, people who are considering sex work are unlikely to arrive at a business with the promise of “Earn $$$ Now” and “onsite training available” and be unaware that its real purpose is to provide commercial sex services. Instead, they are legally able to seek practical and realistic information to inform their decision to become a sex worker.
Of course, negotiations between sex workers and their clients can be more focused on the things that matter. Sex workers can negotiate more carefully without the pressure of wondering if their next client is an undercover cop who is about to arrest them and count their condoms, or someone who may cause them other kinds of harm.
Corruption has also been nipped in the bud, with the police recently prosecuting one of their own for unlawfully trying to extort sexual favors from a sex worker with traffic offences.
The Department of Labour has produced guidelines after consulting with sex workers and brothel operators, which expand on issues of security and describe safe ways in which to provide services such as “outcalls” to the homes of clients. They also address sexual and reproductive health themes and promote the importance of regular, but non-mandatory, testing, in recognition that it is condom use and other safer sex practices, and not testing, that most effectively prevents the spread of sexually transmitted infections (STIs). The law forbids brothel operators promoting or implying that their staff are free from STIs, but requires them to explicitly promote safer sex.
The prevalence of sexually transmissible infections for the country’s estimated 5,000 sex workers is in line with other general populations, with HIV remaining negligible. Medical Officers of Health, under the auspices of the Ministry of Health, have the power to inspect brothels and check compliance with health and safety requirements. The police only routinely visit to inspect liquor licenses.
The approach to allow sex work to occur, supported by labor and other mainstream laws, is now accepted by most people in New Zealand. There are local controversies, such as the lack of zoning for street-based sex workers, which ignite debate, with a bill before the parliament to give councils the power to do so. Interestingly, the police have backed the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective in opposing this bill, recognizing that informal agreements are more effective than imposed legal regimes.
Decriminalization of prostitution is being called for by sex workers in many countries, including India, Fiji, Scotland and, of course, the United States. For sex workers, it goes much deeper than repealing key parts of legislation that criminalize their work. Like others, they want the rights and responsibilities to participate in society without discrimination. The New Zealand model of law reform is a step to creating conditions that allow this to happen.
http://www.fairobserver.com/region/asia_pacific/legalizing-prostitution-new-zealands-example/
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On June 28 2015 19:43 Grumbels wrote: There is a red light district 100 meters from where I live and my impression is that these people are not that happy. There are often groups of hooligans hanging around leering at the girls, you also hear reports of drug addiction and the fact that most of them are from Eastern Europe.
I don't think people with an education and a choice want to become prostitutes. I'm sure you can find a handful of women that enjoy the life of an escort or dancer or whatever, but there is a darker undercurrent. Personally I can't understand why foreign prostitutes are allowed in this country, it just seems an invitation for this seedy, coercive system. Most aren't "allowed", many get into this country and then are put into the sex trade because they can't do anything else.
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On June 29 2015 01:09 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 19:43 Grumbels wrote: There is a red light district 100 meters from where I live and my impression is that these people are not that happy. There are often groups of hooligans hanging around leering at the girls, you also hear reports of drug addiction and the fact that most of them are from Eastern Europe.
I don't think people with an education and a choice want to become prostitutes. I'm sure you can find a handful of women that enjoy the life of an escort or dancer or whatever, but there is a darker undercurrent. Personally I can't understand why foreign prostitutes are allowed in this country, it just seems an invitation for this seedy, coercive system. Most aren't "allowed", many get into this country and then are put into the sex trade because they can't do anything else. I'm talking about the Netherlands, which accepts sex workers from places like Romania and Bulgaria. I find that very dubious, because these people live in a foreign country, don't speak the language and are most likely rotated between various cities and countries so that the local police can never get a good grip on them. It invites abuse and creates an underclass.
I think if prostitution is supposed to be a viable and legitimate profession, it should at least demonstrate that it can attract local workers. If not, it feels to me like you're just importing underprivileged people from poor countries to do the dirty jobs others don't want to do.
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On June 29 2015 01:32 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2015 01:09 Dark_Chill wrote:On June 28 2015 19:43 Grumbels wrote: There is a red light district 100 meters from where I live and my impression is that these people are not that happy. There are often groups of hooligans hanging around leering at the girls, you also hear reports of drug addiction and the fact that most of them are from Eastern Europe.
I don't think people with an education and a choice want to become prostitutes. I'm sure you can find a handful of women that enjoy the life of an escort or dancer or whatever, but there is a darker undercurrent. Personally I can't understand why foreign prostitutes are allowed in this country, it just seems an invitation for this seedy, coercive system. Most aren't "allowed", many get into this country and then are put into the sex trade because they can't do anything else. I'm talking about the Netherlands, which accepts sex workers from places like Romania and Bulgaria. I find that very dubious, because these people live in a foreign country, don't speak the language and are most likely rotated between various cities and countries so that the local police can never get a good grip on them. It invites abuse and creates an underclass. I think if prostitution is supposed to be a viable and legitimate profession, it should at least demonstrate that it can attract local workers. If not, it feels to me like you're just importing underprivileged people from poor countries to do the dirty jobs others don't want to do. Oh sorry, didn't know about the specific place. Is there something wrong in Romania and Bulgaria, because I don't think I've heard of another country where foreign sex workers are able to do that. Edit: Unless they're allowed to work and travel anywhere in the continent (can't remember how much of Europe that's allowed in), then it's just a consequence of that. They're probably promised that they'll make more and then go to the Netherlands.
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On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: Ideologically, I believe if someone wants to sell their body, they should be able to. Unfortunately, that isn't the case most of the time with Prostitution and isn't the business we're talking about. Prostitution should be illegal. It's a shitty business to be in and that's why most of the trade is ran by shitty people and criminal organizations (even in legalized countries). It's a dangerous job (legal or illegal), most woman are manipulated or forced into the sex-trade ending with death or life-long emotional scaring in most cases. If someone really wanted to sell their body, there is the more common avenue of finding someone who'll take care of them financially in return for companionship. Of course, there is also the porn industry. The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses.
Ah, the old, shaming argument. Let me give you some insight into how the prostitution business really works in the United States of America. Since you want to come on here and shame people for some reason, let me give you a first hand experience of how the industry actually works.
The vast majority of escorts/prostitutes even in the United States are actually working towards or already have a college degree. They are intelligent, capable women who chose a certain avenue of life because they either needed alot of money very quickly, or they simply didn't have many alternatives. Is it a lifestyle for everyone? No. Do you have a few girls who are occasionally managed/pimped? Yes. Those girls however, are very easy to spot. It's pretty simple to tell who they are, as you can tell clearly by a few tell tale signs such as how often do they work, certain tattoos, what kind of policies they have (NBA or no black africans is almost a for sure sign), and how they handle themselves through communication. They also charge less then your average girl in the market because they are attempting to go for volume, rather than for the occasional work shift. For example, in the major cities of Dallas, Austin, Houston, and San Antonio, the average price for an escort will run you about $300 USD/hr. Any girls running below this typically run monthly specials or they are managed. Why? Because higher volume means more money in the long run if the girl is able to sustain herself. That being said, there are a few crazy girls out there who go all out around $250 in the Texas area and just go all out and just try and get money by the truckloads (Talked to a girl once who made an absurd 40k a month, turning like 6-8 clients a day).
Your typical girls who are 300, 400, 500, or 600 an hour however typically only see maybe like 3-5 clients a week if even that (sometimes they go through dry spells where they don't even see a client for weeks, depends on how things go). They will typically establish regulars who will see them on a weekly basis for an hour, and that's where the vast majority of their income comes from. However, these types of girls are usually college students, or working on their masters, and are of a 'higher quality' (hate using that term, but kind of hard to word it) then your typical lower end girls. These girls are 100% independent, they may have someone that they trust to handle their booking (typically a former escort girl), but that's about it. They do what they do because they enjoy their work, like the money, and are using their work as a stepping stone to get into a better place in life. Where alot of girls get in trouble though is when they get addicted to the lifestyle, and that's where I wish there were more programs to help them exit. They get addicted to the easy money, are at a fairly young age, and do stupid shit like blowing their money on Chanel Bags and Red Bottoms (Loubatans). I mean, it's ok to splurge once inawhile because they make a shitload of money, however most of them have no idea on how to handle the amount of money they have, so they just do dumb shit with it for the most part. That being said, alot of girls are smart, save, and work towards improving their lives. I've met girls who retired from the business who are quite successful, many of them who went on to become nurses, physician assistants, and lawyers. It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that everyone is put into a life or death situations. Many of these girls were actually part time dancers/strippers/etc. and were approached, they researched it, got into it, and loved it. It's not a long term job, but it is something that allowed many of these women who came from lower socioeconomic status backgrounds to rise up and do something with their lives. No one was forced to do shit.
How do I know all of this? Because I have a very close friend who used to work as an escort, has retired, and went on to become a successful physician assistant. Is she proud of what she did? Probably not. Did it take an emotional toll on her? 100%. But in her situation, she didn't have very many options at all. She did enjoy her work though (to an extent), and I was fully supportive of her. So this whole belief that 'most women are trafficked' is a load of bullshit. Your holier than thou attitude is a load of bullshit too. Many of the women in the industry (who I've personally got to meet through my friend) are just trying to better their own lives, make something of themselves, and doing what they have to. Yes, many of the women who enter the industry didn't come from great families, so they really didn't have many choices. So guess what? You can go fuck off. Seriously. You have no fucking clue as to how the industry even works.
User was temp banned for this post based on poor moderation history
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Well when one realizes the workers get arrested at a 10:1 rate give or take to customers, it makes sense.
Not to mention there is an entire community of women who essentially trade sex for money but just don't consider it prostitution (AKA gold-diggers)
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On June 29 2015 09:28 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 03:33 G5 wrote: Ideologically, I believe if someone wants to sell their body, they should be able to. Unfortunately, that isn't the case most of the time with Prostitution and isn't the business we're talking about. Prostitution should be illegal. It's a shitty business to be in and that's why most of the trade is ran by shitty people and criminal organizations (even in legalized countries). It's a dangerous job (legal or illegal), most woman are manipulated or forced into the sex-trade ending with death or life-long emotional scaring in most cases. If someone really wanted to sell their body, there is the more common avenue of finding someone who'll take care of them financially in return for companionship. Of course, there is also the porn industry. The problem with prostitution is that nearly every single prostitute was manipulated or forced into prostitution. Almost no one wakes up and says "I'm going to try prostitution out". That situation is ridiculously rare. This is a shitty industry and legalizing it in my opinion will just give protections to the shitty people that run these businesses and the shitty ignorant/uncaring people who are customers to these businesses. Ah, the old, shaming argument. Let me give you some insight into how the prostitution business really works in the United States of America. Since you want to come on here and shame people for some reason, let me give you a first hand experience of how the industry actually works. The vast majority of escorts/prostitutes even in the United States are actually working towards or already have a college degree. They are intelligent, capable women who chose a certain avenue of life because they either needed alot of money very quickly, or they simply didn't have many alternatives. Is it a lifestyle for everyone? No. Do you have a few girls who are occasionally managed/pimped? Yes. Those girls however, are very easy to spot. It's pretty simple to tell who they are, as you can tell clearly by a few tell tale signs such as how often do they work, certain tattoos, what kind of policies they have (NBA or no black africans is almost a for sure sign), and how they handle themselves through communication. They also charge less then your average girl in the market because they are attempting to go for volume, rather than for the occasional work shift. For example, in the major cities of Dallas, Austin, Houston, and San Antonio, the average price for an escort will run you about $300 USD/hr. Any girls running below this typically run monthly specials or they are managed. Why? Because higher volume means more money in the long run if the girl is able to sustain herself. That being said, there are a few crazy girls out there who go all out around $250 in the Texas area and just go all out and just try and get money by the truckloads (Talked to a girl once who made an absurd 40k a month, turning like 6-8 clients a day). Your typical girls who are 300, 400, 500, or 600 an hour however typically only see maybe like 3-5 clients a week if even that (sometimes they go through dry spells where they don't even see a client for weeks, depends on how things go). They will typically establish regulars who will see them on a weekly basis for an hour, and that's where the vast majority of their income comes from. However, these types of girls are usually college students, or working on their masters, and are of a 'higher quality' (hate using that term, but kind of hard to word it) then your typical lower end girls. These girls are 100% independent, they may have someone that they trust to handle their booking (typically a former escort girl), but that's about it. They do what they do because they enjoy their work, like the money, and are using their work as a stepping stone to get into a better place in life. Where alot of girls get in trouble though is when they get addicted to the lifestyle, and that's where I wish there were more programs to help them exit. They get addicted to the easy money, are at a fairly young age, and do stupid shit like blowing their money on Chanel Bags and Red Bottoms (Loubatans). I mean, it's ok to splurge once inawhile because they make a shitload of money, however most of them have no idea on how to handle the amount of money they have, so they just do dumb shit with it for the most part. That being said, alot of girls are smart, save, and work towards improving their lives. I've met girls who retired from the business who are quite successful, many of them who went on to become nurses, physician assistants, and lawyers. It's absolutely ridiculous to believe that everyone is put into a life or death situations. Many of these girls were actually part time dancers/strippers/etc. and were approached, they researched it, got into it, and loved it. It's not a long term job, but it is something that allowed many of these women who came from lower socioeconomic status backgrounds to rise up and do something with their lives. No one was forced to do shit. How do I know all of this? Because I have a very close friend who used to work as an escort, has retired, and went on to become a successful physician assistant. Is she proud of what she did? Probably not. Did it take an emotional toll on her? 100%. But in her situation, she didn't have very many options at all. She did enjoy her work though (to an extent), and I was fully supportive of her. So this whole belief that 'most women are trafficked' is a load of bullshit. Your holier than thou attitude is a load of bullshit too. Many of the women in the industry (who I've personally got to meet through my friend) are just trying to better their own lives, make something of themselves, and doing what they have to. Yes, many of the women who enter the industry didn't come from great families, so they really didn't have many choices. So guess what? You can go fuck off. Seriously. You have no fucking clue as to how the industry even works. User was temp banned for this post based on poor moderation history
Everything I have learned, read, and watched including massive studies done/statistics pretty much 100% contradicts your argument. Considering what I reference is from experts in the field and actual statistics, I put faith in those numbers than your opinion on "how this works". Especially considering you actually said How do I know all of this? Because I have a very close friend who used to work as an escort. Quoting your 1 friend in my opinion is absolutely nothing compared to the massive surveys and research done on the thousands of girls that these statistics come from. You even go as far as to say "No one was forced to do shit.". That makes your argument so invalid it's absurd because there are quite literally facts supporting the exact opposite lol. I understand you have an opinion and want to voice it (that is after all what a debate is about) but if you want to change anyone's mind, why not come in with some actual numbers from reputable sources than coming in with your aggressive "you're an idiot" tactics because you "know a former prostitute". Maybe if you approached things logically and calmly you wouldn't be sitting there with a temp-ban as well.
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Ok approach it logically and calmly. How is keeping prostitution illegal going to help prostitutes?
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