|
On February 18 2017 02:46 VHbb wrote:I don't think this makes me a fool, but I don't want to engage in discussion with this tone on SC2 balance.. It's nice to chat about what could improve SC2, but insulting people that work on it it's (in my opinion!) a bit extreme.. you'll be missed man. sry to see you go.
some people like to "conclude" any "discussion" with anyone who disagrees that the other person is an idiot/fool/moron. it adds nothing and in fact lowers the signal-to-noise ratio of their post.
|
Try building a sensor tower.
|
On February 18 2017 00:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2017 23:57 Fatam wrote:On February 17 2017 20:21 VHbb wrote:On February 17 2017 20:16 todespolka wrote: How about finding a strategical solution instead of changing the game?
You can put a sensor tower and turrets and/or create a perimeter. You can keep a small army with static defense. You can expand so, that you minimize the surface, where they can drop. But the best way is probably to move your army so, that you can catch drops before they happen. Doom drops have many counters.
In fact terran drops are a bigger problem for other races. But it is part of the game and each race has a lot of options to counter it. This makes sc2 a strategy game! I fully agree.. these threads keep popping up, but it always feel like it's a "Wannabe game designer mega-thread" If you struggle against something it doesn't mean it's "bad design" or "bad unit interaction", maybe there are solutions which haven't been explored yet. Mech players *always* ask for more positional games, it seems to me that positioning your army to prevent doom drops or to react accordingly could be "positional gameplay" right? I don't want to see TvT where each player sieges and turtles all game long because their positions are unbreakable. I understand that right now terrans are the majority of the playerbase (maybe I'm wrong), but it seems every week there are 1-2 new threads of "game design": I will *always* trust blizzard over someone on TL, unless it's the opinion of a pro that knows the game in and out.. To add to this, most comments in these threads are super harsh and expressed with tones that would never be used in a real conversation, which makes it really toxic to read.. I think on the other side of the coin, just because it's possible to deal with something in-game, doesn't mean it's not bad game design. IMO medivac boost is bad game design because the risk/reward relationship is really off. I wanted to make a similar comment. You also have to consider that (bio) terran gets medivacs no matter what anyway, so the investment to do a doomdrop is basically not there, it develops naturally. That's something i really dislike about medivacs in general tbh. It gives terran something to circumvent any terrain and that in every single game. I think that alone is way off in terms of gamedesign tbh. You could argue that it comes kinda late in the game and thus isn't a big deal, but i am not so sure about that either. But the medivac itself won't ever change so removing the boost is the next best thing, so yeah i agree with that. (also means other things need change most likely, but that's not a bad thing)
Yeah I always forget to mention that, great point. And also IMO it's bad design if there is a unit above T1 that you're always feeling obligated to get.
|
|
I personally prefer the doomdrops to WOL style tank stalemates that would take ages because attacking was suicide.
|
+ Show Spoiler + After watching the first game between Maru and KeeN, I totally agree with this suggestion. The big doom drop is just making TvT painful to watch. Auto GG pretty much.
You should submit this suggestion to Blizzard forum or something. With how strong the sieged tank is, it should take the whole medivac.
|
Every other stage of TvT is also horrible so really we shouldn't focus on doom drops singularily.
|
On February 18 2017 03:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Jeff Kaplan is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Josh Moshquiera was a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Ben Brode is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed.. you get the idea. you guys should all get together and debate who the biggest idiot is amongst all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games. Meanwhile, ATVI is in a layoff phase right now ... 5% reduction in work force.. maybe you can convince them to include all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games in this layoff phase. IMO, David Kim is doing a great job and his changes to from HotS to LotV made the game more fun. I'm 100% satisfied with the money i've spent on the SC2 franchise. The only thing causing a decline in my SC2 play time is Overwatch. Show nested quote +On February 18 2017 01:53 saalih416 wrote: I think the first step would be to revert all the unit stats to their original BroodWar stats and removing any units that weren't in BroodWar. they should also shave Raynor's head too! You might be my favourite poster on TL keep going!
|
On February 18 2017 20:39 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2017 03:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On February 18 2017 02:18 BronzeKnee wrote: Actions matter, consequences matter, accountability matters, responsibility matters. The choices people make matter. He has made far more mistakes that designers of other games and should be held accountable for that. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Jeff Kaplan is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Josh Moshquiera was a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed and that's why ATVI continues to have increasing revenues year after year after year after year after year. there is a gang of "game design experts" claiming Ben Brode is a moron and every other Blizzard game is really well managed.. you get the idea. you guys should all get together and debate who the biggest idiot is amongst all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games. Meanwhile, ATVI is in a layoff phase right now ... 5% reduction in work force.. maybe you can convince them to include all the idiots designing all these Blizzard games in this layoff phase. IMO, David Kim is doing a great job and his changes to from HotS to LotV made the game more fun. I'm 100% satisfied with the money i've spent on the SC2 franchise. The only thing causing a decline in my SC2 play time is Overwatch. On February 18 2017 01:53 saalih416 wrote: I think the first step would be to revert all the unit stats to their original BroodWar stats and removing any units that weren't in BroodWar. they should also shave Raynor's head too! You might be my favourite poster on TL keep going! Yeah only ever talking about money is so interesting
|
my comments on TvT doomdrops are in the thread. i pretty much agree with verlar. so this "only ever talking about money" is false.
the other poster started yappin' about David Kim... and he proceeded to push away an earnest contributor to the thread with insults. he brought up DK not me. most of my post discusses Blizzard and how "forum experts" perceive them.
long term product engagement is objective proof of a quality product. let's see if everyone jumps over to Halo Wars 2 on February 21 or if everyone sticks with SC2.
|
It's just that you in general love to talk about the financial aspect when people talk about the game at hand. It's not doing anything, we all know that it's the most popular rts game atm. That alone doesn't mean it's the best it could be, it only means it's the best option right now. It doesn't even mean that it's a good option or that the multiplayer aspect of it (which we discuss here) is the reason it's successful on the market. And no i don't expect halo wars 2 to be the better option
|
wah wah wah i don't like the emergent play at the highest levels. wah wah wah. might as well fucking throw sc2 in the god damn trash and start over
if sc2 players commented on broodwar balance, you'd hear the exact same whiney shit you're hearing now, and if they had their way they'd ruin the greatest game of all time with their petulant demands. "every time I go bio TvP I get stomped. wah wah wah build order loss" "every time I try to make hydras ZvZ, their mutas kill all my drones T.T, buff hydras, it won't affect ZvT or ZvP!" these are not new issues.
learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made
i am so fucking sick of reading threads on TvT/mech/why cant I do X every game and win?
your conclusion that your proposed change would have "no" effect on TvP or TvZ balance whatsoever is so shortsighted, I can't even. ("it wouldn't effect 'my' TvP or TvZ or: it wouldn't affect 'proper' 'high level' TvP or TvZ....???) This just in, no one ever puts tanks in dropships unless their opponent is a Terran.
|
On February 18 2017 23:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: It's just that you in general love to talk about the financial aspect when people talk about the game at hand. It's not doing anything, we all know that it's the most popular rts game atm. That alone doesn't mean it's the best it could be, it only means it's the best option right now. It doesn't even mean that it's a good option or that the multiplayer aspect of it (which we discuss here) is the reason it's successful on the market. And no i don't expect halo wars 2 to be the better option if you think i'm all about the financial aspect of the video game industry why don't you google the contents of my profile quote... that'll provide a glimpse into my perspective.
trashing DK when its clear he has had the support of Browder, Sigaty, Morhaime, et al for years also accomplishes nothing. i think Morhaime, Sigaty and Browder are better at assessing who a good game designer is than the poster claiming DK is incompetent.
i'll take the money Morhaime is spending on DK above the emotional forum posts of some guy with zero track record in game design.
this poster devolved the thread into an attack on DK and i am providing a rational, reasonable rebuttal to that attack.
|
Sigaty and Browder are better at assessing who a good game designer is than the poster claiming DK is incompetent.
i'll take the money Morhaime is spending on DK above the emotional forum posts of some guy with zero track record in game design. That's purely appeal to authority though. I would rather look at arguments on why someone thinks that sc2 is well designed/not well designed and argue that point. And just because nobody here has a substantial "track record" in game design doesn't mean anything either. Games like dota and cs got created by people out of the community, community feeback was very important as well. So yes i absolutely think that there are people in the community who would do a better job than DK, just because he is in the actual position to have impact doesn't mean that he is in the right. As i said, argue about the game because that's the actual relevant part.
|
On February 19 2017 03:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +Sigaty and Browder are better at assessing who a good game designer is than the poster claiming DK is incompetent.
i'll take the money Morhaime is spending on DK above the emotional forum posts of some guy with zero track record in game design. That's purely appeal to authority though. I would rather look at arguments on why someone thinks that sc2 is well designed/not well designed and argue that point. And just because nobody here has a substantial "track record" in game design doesn't mean anything either. Games like dota and cs got created by people out of the community, community feeback was very important as well. So yes i absolutely think that there are people in the community who would do a better job than DK, just because he is in the actual position to have impact doesn't mean that he is in the right. As i said, argue about the game because that's the actual relevant part. i posted my comments already about TvT doomdrops.
track record is not an appeal to authority + Show Spoiler +a critical examination of a person's track record is the opposite of an appeal to authority. it is a component of every purchasing decision i make... and it becomes an important component in the games i decide to continue to play. i primarily play games i've had fun with in the past. games acquire a track record with me. a reputation if oyu will. i've had a damn lot of fun playing Morhaime's games from R'n'R Racing, to SC64 on the N64, to Brood War for PC, Overwatch and SC2. That decades long track record of personal fun that i've had goes a long, long way versus the words of someone else and has zero to do with an appeal to authority. Turning 1 gameplay element ( tvt doomdrops ) into "fire DK now" is off base. i'm playing Overwatch and SC2 2v2s all day today... i hope you're having fun. if you wish to continue this debate please PM me sir.
On February 19 2017 03:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: As i said, argue about the game because that's the actual relevant part. tell the poster who devolved the thread into an attack on DK and began some ramble about "accountability".
|
On February 19 2017 00:12 ItsFunToLose wrote: wah wah wah i don't like the emergent play at the highest levels. wah wah wah. might as well fucking throw sc2 in the god damn trash and start over
if sc2 players commented on broodwar balance, you'd hear the exact same whiney shit you're hearing now, and if they had their way they'd ruin the greatest game of all time with their petulant demands. "every time I go bio TvP I get stomped. wah wah wah build order loss" "every time I try to make hydras ZvZ, their mutas kill all my drones T.T, buff hydras, it won't affect ZvT or ZvP!" these are not new issues.
learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made
i am so fucking sick of reading threads on TvT/mech/why cant I do X every game and win?
your conclusion that your proposed change would have "no" effect on TvP or TvZ balance whatsoever is so shortsighted, I can't even. ("it wouldn't effect 'my' TvP or TvZ or: it wouldn't affect 'proper' 'high level' TvP or TvZ....???) This just in, no one ever puts tanks in dropships unless their opponent is a Terran.
damn, we better close the thread because you're sick of people having balance discussions. We should never want the game that we love to improve and never question the designers' decisions.
|
for any dummies who think doom drops don't happen to 'good players' or doomdrops are a good part of TvT checkout maru vs ryung game 1
please blizzard put in a reasonable change to help TvT
|
I rather play whit doom drops than playin a 40 minute game every tvt. camping fest. whoever attacks first lose.
|
i think there can be a happy balance between the two, though
|
On February 19 2017 00:12 ItsFunToLose wrote: learn to play the game you were given, not the game you wish blizzard made
Best advice on TL General Forum for a very long time!
|
|
|
|