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Feels like I'm playing 70% PvP in my bracket (the low one). I'm really not complaining tho. Mirrors are a part of the ladder and should be. You have to be able to play all the matchups to climb the ladder imo.
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United States9665 Posts
On August 18 2017 18:31 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 10:40 Dante08 wrote: Glad to know I'm not the only one avoiding TvT. Been avoiding TvT all my years of playing BW and out of 10 ladder games I get 7 TvTs. Guess I just have to learn it now. Why have you been avoiding it? It's easily the most strategic and interesting matchup :/ Because if I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess. Not starcraft.
There is literally no argument to say why Race picking cannot be implemented. It was there for iccup and fish which most of us have played already. "forcing someone to learn the mirror" is a shitty argument. Someone doesn't want to learn the mirror, that's their choice. In tournaments, unless the rules are banning race picking, people can choose their race in a custom lobby.
As for laddering concerns, it literally would not lengthen ladder queues at all. Say I have TvP/Z and PvT. Someone else has PvT/Z and TvP. Great, our main races are Terran and Protoss respectively, I would be T, they would be P. Simple.
What if two TvZ/P and PvT players were matched with each other? Who would play Terran and who would play Protoss, seeing as how both are Terran mains with Protoss race picked? 50/50 coin flip. The system checks who race picked what, sees that their mains are both Terran and both opt for the PvT pick, and flips a coin to see who ladders as the Terran and Protoss. Simple, literally .1 second of computer computation to make the decision and place each as their respective race.
To those people who will complain they won't play anymore mirrors and that mirrors are their best matchup, bro, what percentage of players actually dodge the mirror by race picking? Well under 50%. Considering the poll on page one, if we go by those statistics, 1/6 players race pick. That's hardly that many players who you can't play a mirror with.
On August 18 2017 19:03 Storchen wrote: Feels like I'm playing 70% PvP in my bracket (the low one). I'm really not complaining tho. Mirrors are a part of the ladder and should be. You have to be able to play all the matchups to climb the ladder imo. In what world do you need to play a mirror to climb a ladder? You need to learn how to play against all 3 races (4 technically with Random). If I'm race picking TvZ/P and PvT, I'm still playing against Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. How am I not learning how to play against every race and climbing the ladder by playing every race if I'm race picking?
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On August 18 2017 19:04 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 18:31 Qikz wrote:On August 18 2017 10:40 Dante08 wrote: Glad to know I'm not the only one avoiding TvT. Been avoiding TvT all my years of playing BW and out of 10 ladder games I get 7 TvTs. Guess I just have to learn it now. Why have you been avoiding it? It's easily the most strategic and interesting matchup :/ Because if I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess. Not starcraft. There is literally no argument to say why Race picking cannot be implemented. It was there for iccup and fish which most of us have played already. "forcing someone to learn the mirror" is a shitty argument. Someone doesn't want to learn the mirror, that's their choice. In tournaments, unless the rules are banning race picking, people can choose their race in a custom lobby. As for laddering concerns, it literally would not lengthen ladder queues at all. Say I have TvP/Z and PvT. Someone else has PvT/Z and TvP. Great, our main races are Terran and Protoss respectively, I would be T, they would be P. Simple. What if two TvZ/P and PvT players were matched with each other? Who would play Terran and who would play Protoss, seeing as how both are Terran mains with Protoss race picked? 50/50 coin flip. The system checks who race picked what, sees that their mains are both Terran and both opt for the PvT pick, and flips a coin to see who ladders as the Terran and Protoss. Simple, literally .1 second of computer computation to make the decision and place each as their respective race. To those people who will complain they won't play anymore mirrors and that mirrors are their best matchup, bro, what percentage of players actually dodge the mirror by race picking? Well under 50%. Considering the poll on page one, if we go by those statistics, 1/6 players race pick. That's hardly that many players who you can't play a mirror with. Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 19:03 Storchen wrote: Feels like I'm playing 70% PvP in my bracket (the low one). I'm really not complaining tho. Mirrors are a part of the ladder and should be. You have to be able to play all the matchups to climb the ladder imo. In what world do you need to play a mirror to climb a ladder? You need to learn how to play against all 3 races (4 technically with Random). If I'm race picking TvZ/P and PvT, I'm still playing against Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. How am I not learning how to play against every race and climbing the ladder by playing every race if I'm race picking?
my words.. best post so far
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On August 18 2017 19:09 Lopata wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 19:04 FlaShFTW wrote:On August 18 2017 18:31 Qikz wrote:On August 18 2017 10:40 Dante08 wrote: Glad to know I'm not the only one avoiding TvT. Been avoiding TvT all my years of playing BW and out of 10 ladder games I get 7 TvTs. Guess I just have to learn it now. Why have you been avoiding it? It's easily the most strategic and interesting matchup :/ Because if I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess. Not starcraft. There is literally no argument to say why Race picking cannot be implemented. It was there for iccup and fish which most of us have played already. "forcing someone to learn the mirror" is a shitty argument. Someone doesn't want to learn the mirror, that's their choice. In tournaments, unless the rules are banning race picking, people can choose their race in a custom lobby. As for laddering concerns, it literally would not lengthen ladder queues at all. Say I have TvP/Z and PvT. Someone else has PvT/Z and TvP. Great, our main races are Terran and Protoss respectively, I would be T, they would be P. Simple. What if two TvZ/P and PvT players were matched with each other? Who would play Terran and who would play Protoss, seeing as how both are Terran mains with Protoss race picked? 50/50 coin flip. The system checks who race picked what, sees that their mains are both Terran and both opt for the PvT pick, and flips a coin to see who ladders as the Terran and Protoss. Simple, literally .1 second of computer computation to make the decision and place each as their respective race. To those people who will complain they won't play anymore mirrors and that mirrors are their best matchup, bro, what percentage of players actually dodge the mirror by race picking? Well under 50%. Considering the poll on page one, if we go by those statistics, 1/6 players race pick. That's hardly that many players who you can't play a mirror with. On August 18 2017 19:03 Storchen wrote: Feels like I'm playing 70% PvP in my bracket (the low one). I'm really not complaining tho. Mirrors are a part of the ladder and should be. You have to be able to play all the matchups to climb the ladder imo. In what world do you need to play a mirror to climb a ladder? You need to learn how to play against all 3 races (4 technically with Random). If I'm race picking TvZ/P and PvT, I'm still playing against Protoss, Terran, and Zerg. How am I not learning how to play against every race and climbing the ladder by playing every race if I'm race picking? my words.. best post so far
I agree. Most of my losses are ZvZ. It's ridiculous, I always play TvZ. Now I might switch to Terran because of it, even though my TvP is really rusty right now.
I just don't want to play a coin flip BO rock-paper-scissors, and 1 missclick loss matchup. If I wanted that, I'd play SC2. I'm fine with TvT, and even PvP (even though PvP is kinda similar to ZvZ but not so bad, also BO advantages and boring goon/reaver all the time).
For fuck's sake, even progamers can racepick in official matches if they want.
The reason we don't have it, is that they're lazy, and think they know better than us.
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On August 18 2017 19:31 quirinus wrote: I just don't want to play a coin flip BO rock-paper-scissors, and 1 missclick loss matchup. If I wanted that, I'd play SC2.
i see what you did there. im also a fan of zvt/zvp/tvz race picking. However for me it was because i live tvz/zvt a lot and i never have time to learn to mirror properly. I dont think mirrors are bad though.
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for the love of god, ZvZ is not a RPS BO coin flip.
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Yeah, I enjoy TvZ more too, that's another reason. I know you can minimize the bo randomness in ZvZ with micro and other things (I was exaggerating a bit on purpose, Baku ), but I just don't like my game to depend completely on micro and 1 timing allin.
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I just want to have the option to play pvz or tvz ranked games when I want to. I spent quite some time pvping to get a pvz and it seems not worth the 'trade-off'.
Also random/playing random is completely fine.
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On August 18 2017 13:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 12:57 rauk wrote:On August 18 2017 10:37 Dazed. wrote:On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote:On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys.
In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why?
Here are a couple of things to consider:
How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other.
-> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP)
-> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever.
Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing.
Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue.
Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking.
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I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict.
I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors.
Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid.
Great stuff guys haha you got me.
as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors. On August 18 2017 09:45 RowdierBob wrote: I think the Korean league did change the race picking rules at some point. It was very common for a while, particularly with dumb maps like Paradoxx. I'm pretty sure Joyo for example played PvT, TvP, TvZ. Chojja would play Terran on Paradoxx.
I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues.
As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter. can you show me any pro foreign or korean who racepicked anything other than mirror? maybe testie and some random pros in 1999? Very easy - PJ until he went to SKT and switched to P only... can't quite recall if he played PvT PvP TvZ or PvT ZvP TvZ? Protoss players picking TvZ or ZvP were not that rare at all... I think Trek also did something like that. That being said, it should definitely be allowed. There is no reasonable argument for why it would be difficult to have a PvZ PvT PvR TvP ... matchup selection option, and anytime you run into matchup conflict you default both to their vs random race. There's nothing preventing you from picking TvZ over ZvZ in most tournaments, so why it's somehow less 'pure' is beyond me.
so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc, in the end one suffers and its a huge problem to programm and will result in alot mistakes and also the palyers liking or are better in mirrors will get ranked worse by having less of them
overall there is absolute 0 reason for this a race or random as pick should be fine
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On August 18 2017 19:38 Bakuryu wrote: for the love of god, ZvZ is not a RPS BO coin flip. someone who dodges mirrors wouldn't understand
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On August 18 2017 19:44 Drake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 13:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 18 2017 12:57 rauk wrote:On August 18 2017 10:37 Dazed. wrote:On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote:On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys.
In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why?
Here are a couple of things to consider:
How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other.
-> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP)
-> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever.
Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing.
Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue.
Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking.
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I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict.
I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors.
Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid.
Great stuff guys haha you got me.
as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors. On August 18 2017 09:45 RowdierBob wrote: I think the Korean league did change the race picking rules at some point. It was very common for a while, particularly with dumb maps like Paradoxx. I'm pretty sure Joyo for example played PvT, TvP, TvZ. Chojja would play Terran on Paradoxx.
I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues.
As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter. can you show me any pro foreign or korean who racepicked anything other than mirror? maybe testie and some random pros in 1999? Very easy - PJ until he went to SKT and switched to P only... can't quite recall if he played PvT PvP TvZ or PvT ZvP TvZ? Protoss players picking TvZ or ZvP were not that rare at all... I think Trek also did something like that. That being said, it should definitely be allowed. There is no reasonable argument for why it would be difficult to have a PvZ PvT PvR TvP ... matchup selection option, and anytime you run into matchup conflict you default both to their vs random race. There's nothing preventing you from picking TvZ over ZvZ in most tournaments, so why it's somehow less 'pure' is beyond me. so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc, in the end one suffers and its a huge problem to programm and will result in alot mistakes and also the palyers liking or are better in mirrors will get ranked worse by having less of them overall there is absolute 0 reason for this a race or random as pick should be fine
do you realize,that this going to happen like never? Also in such cases, it could be also randomly decided...
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On August 18 2017 19:52 yB.TeH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 19:38 Bakuryu wrote: for the love of god, ZvZ is not a RPS BO coin flip. someone who dodges mirrors wouldn't understand im not blaming anybody or want them to be blamed, i just dont want "hate speech". so i kindly ask you to stop fueling it by discrediting people with other play preferences as "dodgers who are too stupid to understand" thank you
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It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages.
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On August 18 2017 19:44 Drake wrote: so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc,
This is not a discussion about people hating or being worse at certain matchups though, this is going to happen even with the current system. This is specifically about allowing racepicking to avoid mirrors. The only disadvantage this brings is that we get less mirrors, which most people are fine with anyway (not like there are that many racepickers anyway)
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OP, this is bullshit. What is this truly for? So you could keep your precious win rate? We know you hate mirrors because you suck at it. Therefore it also means some are good at it -- fair game. I dislike mirrors too, but I play it anyway because it's part of Starcraft.
I have suggestions for you:
1) just stick to custom games and kick out whoever you dislike. Hope the wait time suits you. You get to keep your precious win rate though. 2) offer to pay blizzard a monthly premium, maybe they can give you this feature so you can finally play like a spoiled brat
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On August 18 2017 20:42 orvinreyes wrote: OP, this is bullshit. What is this truly for? So you could keep your precious win rate? We know you hate mirrors because you suck at it. Therefore it also means some are good at it -- fair game. I dislike mirrors too, but I play it anyway because it's part of Starcraft.
I have suggestions for you:
1) just stick to custom games and kick out whoever you dislike. Hope the wait time suits you. You get to keep your precious win rate though. 2) offer to pay blizzard a monthly premium, maybe they can give you this feature so you can finally play like a spoiled brat
did you read the whole thread or you just wanted to post something?
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Why limit it to avoiding mirrors? I want my special treatment as well. What about playing TvZ, PvT and ZvP ? Or i really hate to play vs players who cheese a lot, there should be an option where i can select that i only get matched vs players who cheese in less than 10% of their games. It's funny to me that this is a discussion in the bw forums btw, the "perfect game". Apparently not perfect enough to play mirror matchups. Maybe we should change those
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Hell no. If you want to dodge mirrors play custom games.
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Racepicking seems bit problematic on an automated ladder. Some people, such as The_Red_Viper above me, mention playing TvZ, PvT, and ZvP. So what if I decide that I play the same matchups, and suddenly we can't be matched against each other. If the two of us climb the leaderboard, the match making algorithm can't ever compare us by matching us up.
If we alternatively only allow mirror matchup racepick than such a ladder disadvantages players who might be strongest in their mirror matchup. Picking a different race for every opponent race is even more problematic. What if I pick TvT, PvP and ZvZ? (note: this might not even be too crazy for me, I main P, like playing TvT and if map xyz feels bad for PvZ then I might as well go all the way) Suddenly the algorithm will likely create significantly less balanced matches as the playerbase is slowly fractured depending on the participants' selected matchups.
Lastly, many posters suggest than race-picking is an integral part of brood war, yet it has been mentioned that is was heavily limited in the later stages of the korean scene, and even the poll on the first page shows that the consensus they say supposedly exists on this isn't necessarily true. (low sample, I know. but still 80/20)
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Option: -> If matched in a mirror match, which race do you want to play?: Pick one T,Z,P.
Your enemy has selected in this option Z and you P cause both of you don't want to play tvt BUT what is if u pick Z and the enemy is picking Z too, what to do? The solution is, get good in mirrors, flash is good in tvt too. I don't c problem I can't say that TVT is MY favourite matchup, I even prefer PvP or ZvZ over TvT but I need to handle this, that means, I practice TvT hard and yesterday I won nearly every TvT matchup.
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