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On August 05 2009 09:18 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote + The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all. b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice.
Obviously because you haven't watched any of the games apparently. There's more to games than the results. A lesser player can win some games, gosi[flying] is 4-0 this month. Where do you think that should put him in next month's power rank? You have to see where the games were played and who the opponents were. Just quoting numbers isn't going to convince anyone except for a few Flash fans, who are already on your side. Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs, while Flash choked and didn't make the postseason. Sorry. Everyone set up their priorities so that Gom was last. It might have nice prizes, but it doesn't even come close to the prestige of the Proleague, OSL or even MSL. Effort said that he didn't even practice for it and was jokingly mad that Iris did. There's nothing more important than proleague right now and Flash beating a July who hasn't been in any other leagues since losing to Effort in Bacchus in May isn't really an astounding achievement. Stop saying 6-2 like it's some magical formula into the power rank, especially since he only played one matchup.
Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
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On August 06 2009 03:40 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 09:18 EvoChamber wrote: The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all. b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice. Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran. Sorry, but even as a Bisu fan thats just a crappy excuse. Flash has ALWAYS had a jam packed schedule, more often than not he has more games to play than Bisu on any given month. When he does bad, some people make excuses, but most of us can admit he just played bad. Bisu may have been busy, but that doesn't mean its not his fault for playing stupidly aggressive throughout the whole series.
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On August 06 2009 03:40 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 09:18 EvoChamber wrote: The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all. b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice. Obviously because you haven't watched any of the games apparently. There's more to games than the results. A lesser player can win some games, gosi[flying] is 4-0 this month. Where do you think that should put him in next month's power rank? You have to see where the games were played and who the opponents were. Just quoting numbers isn't going to convince anyone except for a few Flash fans, who are already on your side. Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs, while Flash choked and didn't make the postseason. Sorry. Everyone set up their priorities so that Gom was last. It might have nice prizes, but it doesn't even come close to the prestige of the Proleague, OSL or even MSL. Effort said that he didn't even practice for it and was jokingly mad that Iris did. There's nothing more important than proleague right now and Flash beating a July who hasn't been in any other leagues since losing to Effort in Bacchus in May isn't really an astounding achievement. Stop saying 6-2 like it's some magical formula into the power rank, especially since he only played one matchup. Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran.
Dude, quit trying to use Flash's team as an argument against him. The reason KT failed to make the playoffs wasn't Flash. It's KT. In rounds 1, 2, and 4 of SPL the team went 14-19 with Flash firing on all cylinders. In Winners' League Flash was abused and earned his team a 7-4 record while flopping out of OSL. In one night, he all-killed Estro and lost to Best in OSL 2 hours later. In SPL R5 KT goes 8-3 (and could have gone 9-2 if the coaches hadn't sent out ForGG for the ace match against Leta) because Violet developed into a reliable second player. Yeah, Flash died twice against STX. But somehow those two losses prove that he's failed his team when the reason KT was forced into a do-or-die situation to make the playoffs was the horrid record from R1, R2, and R4, when Flash was the only thing KT had. Holding KT's absence from the playoffs against Flash of all people? He won 54 games! Blame KT management. Blame KT coaches. Blame Luxury and ForGG. Hell, even blame the mascot. Anyone, really, but Flash, who burned up his chances in the OSL and MSL for three seasons all for the sake of his team's playoff chances and got nothing for all his efforts.
Flash has been around long enough for us to know what kind of player he is. Preparation is everything for him. He's a theorist who needs plenty of time to examine the map and the opponent thoroughly before he enters the game. The hectic and random pace of Proleague is thus a particularly terrible situation in which to strand him with little to no backup, and the stress clearly wore down his ability to prepare fully for MSL and OSL. Flash isn't Jaedong, whose natural talent, honed by who knows how many thousands of ZvZs, is to think on his feet, to adapt with little or no preparation time for whatever may come. He is not Bisu, who has excellent coaches and reliable teammates and who can play SPL in the arrogance, certainty, and comfort that comes from knowing that a whole lot of people have got your back. Until R5, Flash was just......out there. Forced to perform, day in and day out, night in and night out. I've heard the spirit of Michael Jackson still walks the earth. He carries a ruler with his mouse and keyboard, and wears a bright red uniform on which the words FINGER BOOM are prominently emblazoned. The tragic aspect of Flash isn't that he loses games. It's that he wins so many that KT, a team renowned for killing geese who lay golden eggs, thought that everything was fine and dandy with sending him out nonstop with no one to cover him. It's that the development of his tremendous potential is being retarded for the sake of a team that either doesn't give a shit about him or doesn't know how to.
So stop arguing against Flash, and start pointing the finger at.....Finger Boom.
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On August 06 2009 01:12 Nylan wrote: It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play.
Every comeback in everything is duo to the mistake of your opponent ..... This are pointless arguments . Iris should have been above Canata . 3 - 0ing Effort , demolishing Hwasin being 1 - 0 against Bisu and decent performance in PL should have earned that spot .
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On August 06 2009 04:43 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 03:40 ghostWriter wrote:On August 05 2009 09:18 EvoChamber wrote: The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all. b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice. Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran. Sorry, but even as a Bisu fan thats just a crappy excuse. Flash has ALWAYS had a jam packed schedule, more often than not he has more games to play than Bisu on any given month. When he does bad, some people make excuses, but most of us can admit he just played bad. Bisu may have been busy, but that doesn't mean its not his fault for playing stupidly aggressive throughout the whole series.
The wording in ghostWriter's post is a little unclear, but I don't think he was trying to say Bisu's MSL loss was because of 'scheduling'. What he was saying is that Bisu's absence from leagues in the period that this PR covers was because of the scheduling of the PL grand finals (which was organised so that Bisu's team didn't play at all), and because his MSL series was after the PR was written. These two factors combined to make Bisu's record of games played for his PR very small, even though he was still in two of the three major leagues.
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On August 06 2009 05:10 EvoChamber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 03:40 ghostWriter wrote:On August 05 2009 09:18 EvoChamber wrote: The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all. b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice. Obviously because you haven't watched any of the games apparently. There's more to games than the results. A lesser player can win some games, gosi[flying] is 4-0 this month. Where do you think that should put him in next month's power rank? You have to see where the games were played and who the opponents were. Just quoting numbers isn't going to convince anyone except for a few Flash fans, who are already on your side. Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs, while Flash choked and didn't make the postseason. Sorry. Everyone set up their priorities so that Gom was last. It might have nice prizes, but it doesn't even come close to the prestige of the Proleague, OSL or even MSL. Effort said that he didn't even practice for it and was jokingly mad that Iris did. There's nothing more important than proleague right now and Flash beating a July who hasn't been in any other leagues since losing to Effort in Bacchus in May isn't really an astounding achievement. Stop saying 6-2 like it's some magical formula into the power rank, especially since he only played one matchup. Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran. Dude, quit trying to use Flash's team as an argument against him. The reason KT failed to make the playoffs wasn't Flash. It's KT. In rounds 1, 2, and 4 of SPL the team went 14-19 with Flash firing on all cylinders. In Winners' League Flash was abused and earned his team a 7-4 record while flopping out of OSL. In one night, he all-killed Estro and lost to Best in OSL 2 hours later. In SPL R5 KT goes 8-3 (and could have gone 9-2 if the coaches hadn't sent out ForGG for the ace match against Leta) because Violet developed into a reliable second player. Yeah, Flash died twice against STX. But somehow those two losses prove that he's failed his team when the reason KT was forced into a do-or-die situation to make the playoffs was the horrid record from R1, R2, and R4, when Flash was the only thing KT had. Holding KT's absence from the playoffs against Flash of all people? He won 54 games! Blame KT management. Blame KT coaches. Blame Luxury and ForGG. Hell, even blame the mascot. Anyone, really, but Flash, who burned up his chances in the OSL and MSL for three seasons all for the sake of his team's playoff chances and got nothing for all his efforts. Flash has been around long enough for us to know what kind of player he is. Preparation is everything for him. He's a theorist who needs plenty of time to examine the map and the opponent thoroughly before he enters the game. The hectic and random pace of Proleague is thus a particularly terrible situation in which to strand him with little to no backup, and the stress clearly wore down his ability to prepare fully for MSL and OSL. Flash isn't Jaedong, whose natural talent, honed by who knows how many thousands of ZvZs, is to think on his feet, to adapt with little or no preparation time for whatever may come. He is not Bisu, who has excellent coaches and reliable teammates and who can play SPL in the arrogance, certainty, and comfort that comes from knowing that a whole lot of people have got your back. Until R5, Flash was just......out there. Forced to perform, day in and day out, night in and night out. I've heard the spirit of Michael Jackson still walks the earth. He carries a ruler with his mouse and keyboard, and wears a bright red uniform on which the words FINGER BOOM are prominently emblazoned. The tragic aspect of Flash isn't that he loses games. It's that he wins so many that KT, a team renowned for killing geese who lay golden eggs, thought that everything was fine and dandy with sending him out nonstop with no one to cover him. It's that the development of his tremendous potential is being retarded for the sake of a team that either doesn't give a shit about him or doesn't know how to. So stop arguing against Flash, and start pointing the finger at.....Finger Boom.
Quoted for being an excellent post
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On August 06 2009 03:38 Hieros wrote:Show nested quote +(1)It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play. Show nested quote +(2)Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. Show nested quote +When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman. (Bolded numbers mine.) ? Perhaps argument wasn't the best word, perhaps "adage", "truism", "premise", "hypothesis" come to mind, but he was indeed dispelling the notion of that as a coherent idea, and if you did not want yourself associate with it, why did you post that?
I believe my post made it perfectly clear that I thought it applied in this case and made sense in others, but was not a law of gameplay, nor was it a phrase I coined myself. Another way of phrasing the "saying" i mentioned would be "Most comebacks happen because a player throws away their advantage". Given that I did not feel the phrase was true in all cases, my stance would be "many" rather than "most", which leaves plenty of wiggle room.
His flaw, more than developing a saying that I likened to the situation into a full-blown argument tied in to other accusations against Flash, was changing it into an absolute. That's something I'm not endorsing in the slightest.
Moreover the premise seems to be an underlying thread in at least some of the posts here. Just because someone didn't advance a particular argument phrased as such does not necessarily imply that invoking it counts as a "straw man". (1) is equivalent to (2), so the entirety of the first quote would be equivalent to (2) with the proviso that it generally, but not always, describes most situations.
Invoking an argument that has not been advanced is part of the definition of a straw man.
EDIT: A thought just occurred to me...a lot of arguments in PR threads seem to revolve around what I would call "kinetic" ability versus "potential" ability. It's kinda stating the obvious, but I thought it was interesting to think about it in these terms. How much weight should each type of "ability" be given in any particular PR?
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ggq, you are right and to evochamber, I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that. He isn't in the MSL, yes, it was the group of death and they were all top level zergs, but he still flunked out of the round of 16, a pretty poor showing for someone who should be in the top 3. There's no excuse for losing to kwanro in the round of 16 of the OSL. The only leg that people promoting flash have to stand on is his Gom performance but he's beaten reach, hoejja, shuttle and july to get there. Not losing any games is impressive, but he's only beaten people he should have won against anyway. The mark of a top player is beating other top players, not winning series that you shouldn't drop anyway. You people say Flash 6-2, Flash 6-2 like it's the chorus of a song or something. Half of those wins are from Julyzerg, who isn't even 6th best on his own team. No offense to July, he's a great player and a real veteran; however, if your team is in a bo7 in the postseason and your team sends out 3 zergs (calm, hero, modesty(wtf?!?)) and none of them is you, you must be doing something wrong.
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ggq, you are right and to evochamber, I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that.
No, it's not, for the very same reason Bisu doesn't deserve extra points because he's automatically in the finals and didn't play any games. They're non-factors.
Also, you mixed up OSL and MSL.
I thought July specifically asked not to play in proleague so he could practice for GOM?
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On August 06 2009 05:47 ghostWriter wrote: I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that.
No, his absence from proleague is *not* an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank.
Nobody on this power rank could have brought KT into the playoffs. Nobody. Not Jaedong, not Bisu, not fantasy, and definitely not Yarnc, Calm, Skyhigh, Effort, Iris, Canata or type-b (lol).
Flash did infinitely better in this year's PL than 8 out of 10 people on this rank (and no worse than the remaining two). The fact that his team failed to make the playoffs does not reflect on Flash in the slightest. KT didn't make the playoffs because KT is terrible. If you think his absence from playoffs is a mark against him (even a "minor" one), then yes, you are using Flash's team against him.
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On August 06 2009 05:35 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 03:38 Hieros wrote:(1)It has been said that comebacks are only possible in Starcraft if the player with an advantage makes a mistake. While I don't think that's a universal statement, it describes most comebacks perfectly. It also describes July's late-game play. (2)Your argument is if someone has an advantage and doesn't make a mistake, then they will win. Well gosh, what a great argument. When you start a post with "your argument was" when the previous post presented no argument, it is a strawman. (Bolded numbers mine.) ? Perhaps argument wasn't the best word, perhaps "adage", "truism", "premise", "hypothesis" come to mind, but he was indeed dispelling the notion of that as a coherent idea, and if you did not want yourself associate with it, why did you post that? I believe my post made it perfectly clear that I thought it applied in this case and made sense in others, but was not a law of gameplay, nor was it a phrase I coined myself. Another way of phrasing the "saying" i mentioned would be "Most comebacks happen because a player throws away their advantage". Given that I did not feel the phrase was true in all cases, my stance would be "many" rather than "most", which leaves plenty of wiggle room. His flaw, more than developing a saying that I likened to the situation into a full-blown argument tied in to other accusations against Flash, was changing it into an absolute. That's something I'm not endorsing in the slightest. Show nested quote +Moreover the premise seems to be an underlying thread in at least some of the posts here. Just because someone didn't advance a particular argument phrased as such does not necessarily imply that invoking it counts as a "straw man". (1) is equivalent to (2), so the entirety of the first quote would be equivalent to (2) with the proviso that it generally, but not always, describes most situations.
Invoking an argument that has not been advanced is part of the definition of a straw man. EDIT: A thought just occurred to me...a lot of arguments in PR threads seem to revolve around what I would call "kinetic" ability versus "potential" ability. It's kinda stating the obvious, but I thought it was interesting to think about it in these terms. How much weight should each type of "ability" be given in any particular PR?
I said an argument not advanced phrased as such, that is, an identical one with different phrasing. I had hoped the context would make it clear. Sorry for the ponderous construction on my part.
But as you said, its only a part of the definition of a straw man, and not a necessary or sufficient condition at that.
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On August 06 2009 05:14 GGQ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 04:43 Dazed_Spy wrote:On August 06 2009 03:40 ghostWriter wrote:On August 05 2009 09:18 EvoChamber wrote: The way I see it, you either need to (a) show how two players in identical situations were treated differently, or you need to (b) accept that your priorities in the PR do not mesh with the current writer. a. See the last 20-odd posts about the respective fates of Flash and Bisu relative to their performance in the past month. There's a very humorous post by hinanawi that sums it up well if you can't or don't want to read it all. b. I have. But to keep Bisu at 3 for going 2-2, raise Canata two spots for going 2-5, and drop Flash six spots for going 6-2 is just flat-out wrong. Not merely subjectively, but objectively and holistically. You can justify any of those decisions on their own, but those justifications nullify each other. All that's left are untenable biases and unconscious caprice. Bisu's absence from leagues is not his fault; it's the scheduling with the grand finals and msl happening after the powerrank was up. Flash's absence from leagues was from him doing relatively poorly for a person who is supposed to be the representative Terran. Sorry, but even as a Bisu fan thats just a crappy excuse. Flash has ALWAYS had a jam packed schedule, more often than not he has more games to play than Bisu on any given month. When he does bad, some people make excuses, but most of us can admit he just played bad. Bisu may have been busy, but that doesn't mean its not his fault for playing stupidly aggressive throughout the whole series. The wording in ghostWriter's post is a little unclear, but I don't think he was trying to say Bisu's MSL loss was because of 'scheduling'. What he was saying is that Bisu's absence from leagues in the period that this PR covers was because of the scheduling of the PL grand finals (which was organised so that Bisu's team didn't play at all), and because his MSL series was after the PR was written. These two factors combined to make Bisu's record of games played for his PR very small, even though he was still in two of the three major leagues. Ah, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding then, ghostwriter.
Edit: Flash not being on the PR I think is one of the constant issues with the ranking system. Do you rank people based on who you think are the top ten, or do you rank people based on who actually showed the best game play? I don't think anyone here thinks type-b is even close to the top ten best players in sc, and I doubt anyone thinks flash isnt in the top ten. Unfortunately his play this month hasn't lived up to his own standards, just as Leta's hasnt. So yeah it becomes a contentious issue, results vs theoretical abilities, and each argument has won in the past [for example midas didnt move from the 4th spot despite playing no games long ago]. In this case though, I think that Flash dropping to the cbnc or at least the tenth spot is fair, and im also a flash fan. But really, you guys can argue incessantly, but your never going to convince the other who's right. Time will prove it.
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On August 06 2009 05:49 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +ggq, you are right and to evochamber, I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that. No, it's not, for the very same reason Bisu doesn't deserve extra points because he's automatically in the finals and didn't play any games. They're non-factors. Also, you mixed up OSL and MSL. I thought July specifically asked not to play in proleague so he could practice for GOM?
Woops, that's embarrassing. I even looked it up to make sure my memory was right and it was, but I mistyped it. It's just a one letter difference =/
On August 06 2009 06:01 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 05:47 ghostWriter wrote: I am not trying to use flash's team against him. His absence from proleague is just an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank and a minor one at that.
No, his absence from proleague is *not* an example of why he doesn't deserve to be in the power rank. Nobody on this power rank could have brought KT into the playoffs. Nobody. Not Jaedong, not Bisu, not fantasy, and definitely not Yarnc, Calm, Skyhigh, Effort, Iris, Canata or type-b (lol). Flash did infinitely better in this year's PL than 8 out of 10 people on this rank (and no worse than the remaining two). The fact that his team failed to make the playoffs does not reflect on Flash in the slightest. KT didn't make the playoffs because KT is terrible. If you think his absence from playoffs is a mark against him (even a "minor" one), then yes, you are using Flash's team against him.
Although Violet finally blossomed but kinda choked, KT had a chance to make the playoffs. Although cj was 31 wins/24 losses +22, samsung khan was 30 wins/25 losses+3 while KT was 29 wins/26 losses +1. If flash didn't choke at the end, he would have had the most wins AND be in the postseason. He choked when it counted the most (as did OZ, but they only fell out of the #1 spot, while KT fell out of the postseason altogether). Any anyway, doing well over a year is not what this power rank is about, that's kespa rankings.
On August 06 2009 06:25 Dazed_Spy wrote: I don't think anyone here thinks type-b is even close to the top ten best players in sc, and I doubt anyone thinks flash isnt in the top ten. Unfortunately his play this month hasn't lived up to his own standards, just as Leta's hasnt. This is it right here. Who wasn't surprised that type-b made it into the round of 4, knocking out pure and best, advancing with fantasy over Backho and Stork and beating Leta 2-1? Type-b probably isn't even among the top 30 players, but to go so far with few people, if any, rooting for him or expecting that he would go anywhere is damn near miraculous. Flash on the other hand, was relatively awful (for him). The best players are held to a higher standard because they have performed in the past and are expected to keep performing in the future. This isn't an absolute scale, power ranks are given on a bit of a curve. There's no doubt that Flash is better than most of the players on the rank and is unarguably the best TvT player out there, but his recent play just doesn't allow for him to be on the rank.
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Flying for PR ~~ he has 5-0 streak, best record ever
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On August 06 2009 07:21 ghostWriter wrote: Although Violet finally blossomed but kinda choked, KT had a chance to make the playoffs. Although cj was 31 wins/24 losses +22, samsung khan was 30 wins/25 losses+3 while KT was 29 wins/26 losses +1. If flash didn't choke at the end, he would have had the most wins AND be in the postseason. He choked when it counted the most (as did OZ, but they only fell out of the #1 spot, while KT fell out of the postseason altogether). Any anyway, doing well over a year is not what this power rank is about, that's kespa rankings.
Are you saying the fact that his team missed PL playoffs is a mark against him, or aren't you? The games against STX that he lost shouldn't be a mark against him since they didn't take place in the last monthly period. If you're suggesting we take those into account then why shouldn't we take into account the fact that KT would've been lower than eSTRO without him? Blaming him for the fact that KT missed the playoffs is just ridiculous, especially when you say things like
On August 06 2009 03:40 ghostWriter wrote: Jaedong carried OZ into 2nd place in the proleague playoffs
Oz's record slipped hard in the last two rounds where you could argue that Jaedong "carried" them. His carrying was enough to keep them in second place after holding first for most of the season, that's it. Don't act like he got them there alone while Flash somehow screwed his team over by only tying for the most proleague wins.
His team not being present in the playoffs is not a strike against him. It just means he doesn't have those games to count for him, or against him (see: Leta).
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Ugh I keep trying to leave this thread but keep getting dragged back in!
Did you know that at the time of this PR's posting:
- Flash went 1-2 in OSL in the group of death and failed to advance to the round of 8 - Bisu went 1-2 in OSL in a group of noobs (ok not really but it was undeniably a weaker group) and failed to advance to the round of 8
- Flash went 1-2 in MSL round of 16, losing to a player who we now know is in the MSL semis - Bisu went 2-0 in MSL round of 16 (against a teammate, Fantasy) and was 0-1 in MSL round of 8, we now know he lost 2-3 to a player who therefore is in the MSL semis
Obviously Flash's slightly less bad OSL failure is more than offset by Bisu's superior MSL performance (especially since Bisu hadn't lost yet when the rank was released). Of course Bisu should be above Flash in the power rank, and I've already said I don't think Flash deserves to be on it this month. But yeah, the gap really wasn't gigantic, I just think people are holding Flash's past Starleague failures against him when evaluating this one.
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I hate it when people quote me and respond to me when it's obvious that they didn't read what I wrote and write something that I've already addressed.
The game against STX wasn't in this period but it's why he's not in proleague, which is relevant to this month. I was explaining the difference between Bisu's lack of games and Flash's lack of games and why each implies different things: It wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make it into the postseason, but they had a chance to make it over khan and flash blew it TWICE. Ignoring the series that sktt1 just gave to them because it didn't matter, check it out: stx vs kt last game Violet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
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On August 06 2009 09:19 ghostWriter wrote:I hate it when people quote me and respond to me when it's obvious that they didn't read what I wrote and write something that I've already addressed. The game against STX wasn't in this period but it's why he's not in proleague, which is relevant to this month. I was explaining the difference between Bisu's lack of games and Flash's lack of games and why each implies different things: It wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make it into the postseason, but they had a chance to make it over khan and flash blew it TWICE. Ignoring the series that sktt1 just gave to them because it didn't matter, check it out: stx vs kt last gameViolet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
This one day that wasn't even in the past PR period is so significant that it outweighs his whole year of PL success? At the minimum it should be a wash.
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On August 06 2009 09:19 ghostWriter wrote:I hate it when people quote me and respond to me when it's obvious that they didn't read what I wrote and write something that I've already addressed. The game against STX wasn't in this period but it's why he's not in proleague, which is relevant to this month. I was explaining the difference between Bisu's lack of games and Flash's lack of games and why each implies different things: It wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make it into the postseason, but they had a chance to make it over khan and flash blew it TWICE. Ignoring the series that sktt1 just gave to them because it didn't matter, check it out: stx vs kt last gameViolet and 815 won, all Flash had to do is win one more game but he lost to calm AND kal. Why should this massive failure not be included? STX didn't even send out their best lineup.
That match was not the only reason why KT missed the playoffs. That's exactly the kind of thinking I'm arguing against. Why is this one game that Flash screwed up to blame for them missing the playoffs, rather than the entire first 4 rounds where KT lost countless games because nobody but Flash could win?
You say "it wouldn't have been his fault if KT didn't have a chance to make into the postseason". How can you possibly keep ignoring the fact that he is the only reason that they had a chance in the first place? Can you give a single reasonable argument to explain why this one bad day which does not fall in the period covered by this PR should outweigh everything positive he did for his team this season?
Look at it this way:
-Bisu did a lot for his team this season, and didn't play games this month because they're really good and made the grand finals. -Flash did a lot for his team this season, and didn't play games this month because they really suck and missed the playoffs.
(I'm not saying Flash should be above Bisu or anything like that) There's obviously a difference in their reasons for not having played any PL games this month, but that is in their teams' performances, not their individual performances.
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