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On January 26 2011 04:00 xarthaz wrote:Also, Bogus is only 17 and already kickin a very solid 60% winrate in all matchups, and showing incredibly high form in recent few weeks
Looking at some of the winning percentages of some relatively newer players like Bogus (58.75%) or Stats (57.02%) or Hydra (56.36%) who are doing well (well, better than 55%, anyway) got me interested in seeing where TBLS were at the same point in their careers. So, through 70 games (where Bogus is), Flash was at 62.86%, Jaedong was at 60%, Bisu was at 60%, and Stork was at 57.14%. Through 121 games (where Stats is), Flash was at 67.77%, Jaedong was at 62.81%, Bisu was at 62.81%, and Stork was at 53.33%.
Stork seemed to be hitting a bit of a rough patch at that point, in February / March of 2007. By the end of September, he was back over 60%, and he's pretty much stayed in the 60 - 62% range since then.
It'll be interesting to see if these newer players will be able to maintain their pace over the long haul, the way those four have. None of the newer players are really giving me that sense of je ne sais quois quite yet, though.
It's actually another way that the four of them are dominant; so far as I can tell, they are top or near the top in winning percentage in their respective match-ups, at least for people who've won over 100 total games and over ~30 games in a given match-up.
Overall: 1. Flash 367 - 143 (71.96%) 2. Jaedong 406 - 185 (68.70%) 3. Bisu 312 - 170 (64.73%) 4. Stork 342 - 216 (61.29%)
vT 1. Flash 132 - 47 (73.74%) 2. Stork 134 - 63 (68.02%) 3. sKyHigh 46 - 22 (67.65%) 4. BeSt 60 - 32 (65.22%) 5. Leta 65 - 39 (62.50%) 6. Jaedong 149 - 90 (62.34%) 7. Fantasy 58 - 37 (61.05%) 8. YellOw[ArnC] 70 - 46 (60.34%) 9. Bisu 103 - 68 (60.23%)
vZ 1. Jaedong 143 - 44 (76.47%) 2. Flash 122 - 51 (70.52%) 3. Bisu 116 - 51 (69.46%) (Stork is at 56.61%)
vP 1. Flash 113 - 45 (71.52%) 2. EffOrt 41 - 18 (69.49%) 3. Jaedong 114 - 51 (69.09%) 4. July 93 - 45 (67.39%) 5. H.O.T-Forever 38 - 19 (66.67%) 6. sAviOr 70 - 37 (65.42%) 7. ChoJJa 58 - 32 (64.44%) 8. Bisu 90 - 51 (63.83%) (Stork is at 58.72%)
In TvT, TvZ, and TvP, Flash is first in all match-ups. In ZvT and ZvZ, Jaedong is far and away first place, and he's pretty close to EffOrt (he was probably above, up until this recent PvP mini-slump) in ZvP. Bisu is third in PvT, first by a mile in PvZ, and first in PvP. Stork is first in PvT, and more than respectable in the other match-ups.
Granted, doing it like this doeshurt players who played long past their prime, like Yellow (56% / 55% / 57% / 58%), but it is impressive nonetheless, seeing just how far ahead they are, especially compared to their contemporaries.
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On January 26 2011 04:41 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:00 Pvvned wrote:Like all zergs before him, Jaedong will also eventually fade away as his mechanics deteriorate. I wouldn't be surprised if Yellow have higher apm today than during his "prime", and I'm pretty sure he's a better player now than back then, maybe not creatively, but definately in terms of speed, efficiency and mistake ratio, which is more important than creativity today. The old top players didn't start sucking because of loss of talent. SC in 2003 was a whole other game than it is today and they all just failed to adapt, or didn't have enough talent to be a top player in today's BW. And I obviously don't mean Yellow isn't talented, but he might not be talented at macrowhoring, which is a requirement today. Comparing Yellow with Jaedong is like comparing Paul McCartney with Yngwie Malmsteen. As for the future, I think Hydra and Bogus are kind of obvious, but I also have a lot of hopes on Modesty.
Is this why people fade away? I was always wondering that. It seems strange that even in esports where your physical condition is less important(though obviously you don't want arthritis or anything), older players would be seen as less able to win. Many older players have extremely high APM, so is it just because they got used to Starcraft being one game and it just turned into another?
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United States11390 Posts
On January 26 2011 04:41 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 00:00 Pvvned wrote:Like all zergs before him, Jaedong will also eventually fade away as his mechanics deteriorate. I wouldn't be surprised if Yellow have higher apm today than during his "prime", and I'm pretty sure he's a better player now than back then, maybe not creatively, but definately in terms of speed, efficiency and mistake ratio, which is more important than creativity today. The old top players didn't start sucking because of loss of talent. SC in 2003 was a whole other game than it is today and they all just failed to adapt, or didn't have enough talent to be a top player in today's BW. And I obviously don't mean Yellow isn't talented, but he might not be talented at macrowhoring, which is a requirement today. Comparing Yellow with Jaedong is like comparing Paul McCartney with Yngwie Malmsteen. As for the future, I think Hydra and Bogus are kind of obvious, but I also have a lot of hopes on Modesty. Yellow's actually responded about this before.
On January 28 2008 09:53 FConnectionUK wrote: Segments of TheMarine's Stimpack Interview Translation I thought was interesting Yell0w: When I watch Flash play the game, without pretense, I'm amazed. Simply amazing. I've never seen anyone who can manage the eco as well as he does. Every eco falls into perfect timing. PERFECT timing. Not only that, it seems like he's spending all his eco, yet he always have spare mineral to expand more... That really is breathtaking to watch. Is he really calculating all the timing? Or is this by his sense?
TheMarine: I think it's both; he calculates as much as he can, but he relies on his sense as well. In Starcraft, having a good sense is the best
Yell0w: To be honest, I don't watch any other progamers play. Not at all. But recently, I watched the game between Flash and Jaedong... And I saw how Jaedong played. Holy cow! (giggles)
TheMarine: Yes, I know. I thought to myself, you can't get ANY better than THAT!
Yell0w: Goodness... H e i s c r a z y!
TheMarine: Watching him play, I tell that to myself everyday!
Yell0w: In any given circumstance, he reads them all. He's not just good at playing the game... He knows how to win the game. What I mean by that is, he has a way to win even in the most desperate situation. He's not just GREAT at game (like the rest of the progamers), he KNOWS how to WIN the game. From the start to finish, everything he does is to WIN the game, heck, I don't even know how to describe this! Watching him play, upsets me. Even in my PRIME time, was I THAT good? Casting doubt to myself. Even with Jaedong's skill, win is not guaranteed, then how about me? Depressing... Perhaps this is the reason my passion to win collapsed...(nervous laugh)
TheMarine: It's amazing that zerg is able to fight so well against Terran at SUCH high level
Yell0w: Flash was up against Jaedong several times recently
TheMarine: 3 series!
Yell0w: When I see Flash practice in our practice house, it is like a new experience. This kid is crazy. Crazyyyyy! Everyone admits his spectacular skill.
TheMarine: In practice house, it seems like Flash would NEVER lose to ANYONE
Yell0w: I kept telling him that he already won. There's no way you will lose with the skill you have. And he responded in a cute fashion, "Fine then, I'll beat Jaedong easily and advance, ok?" I told him "I have complete faith in you! Go! Go win your games!" (Thumbs up) He later came back that day... "Hyung... Sorry..."
Yell0w + TheMarine: LoL
Yell0w: So I watched the game. Yes, Flash made mistakes he never makes, but still! He played extremely well! EVEN THEN, Jaedong's play stands out. Mutalisks cutting off here and there nonstop. Defiler coming out at the perfect timing, dark swarn here and there. I told myself... he is a MACHINE. He does EVERYTHING at once. He doesn't lack anything at all.
------------------------------
Yell0w: IF old progamer at his PRIME come to play right now, he would fail. The game level has enhanced so much since then.
Yell0w: At my prime time, I thought I was THE best. There can't be any more improvement from this point on. Just look at my APM. Yet time continued to flow and now I ask myself, if I was to come today from the past with my skills at the prime time, will I be successful? Skills have evolved once more again...
TheMarine: I agree, there was a BIG skill improvement again and again. As of late, Offense AND defense are both a must at the same time.
TheMarine: Isn't that amusing if you think about it? In our prime time, we felt that... with every effort we moved our hands at the fastest speed we thought was possible. We concluded that our hands cannot be any faster than this. Especially at my time, the reason why I was most successful was only because my hands were the fastest. Back then 100 apm was the average, if fast, then low 200. However, I maintain low to mid 300 apms. Then XelloS and Nada's appearance pushed the limit to mid - high 300 apm. I thought THAT was the true limit. Anything above that was humanly impossible. The end. The end of multitask, the end of micro, the end of macro. That was the impression I had... But now, just look at Bisu... Jaedong... their apm? OVER 400. What's more amusing? All their teammates claim that all their movements are required movements. (Not spam) And I have nothing to say to that...
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For older players I think it has to do with burn out, and not adapting. I think having player who dominated for to long is bad. I would rather watch a rookie take his first starleague over watching flash take his millionth
New blood is important.
fyi Flash still owns.
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I got all excited about the musician analogy, although its a bit off topic lol
+ Show Spoiler +Comparing Yellow with Jaedong is like comparing Paul McCartney with Yngwie Malmsteen. I would say Yellow is Paul Gilmore, then Boxer is Jimi Hendrix Nada is Stevie Ray Vaughn Reach is Frank Zappa If JD is Yngwie, then Stork = Guthrie Govan Bisu = Jason Becker and Flash is Jeff Loomis The older generation were arguably the best of all time, but as far as technical skill on the instrument is concerned the latter musicians are indeed more capable (although not as original)
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Sometimes you can just feel that a new S-class player is rising. When Flash entered the pro-scene he went 15-2 over the first 3 months of play.
At the moment we have none who just comes in and owns it up from the start, and my guess is that unless we see that, the era of TBLS (though mostly LS) will last for a long time.
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On January 26 2011 05:13 StylishVODs wrote: Sometimes you can just feel that a new S-class player is rising. When Flash entered the pro-scene he went 15-2 over the first 3 months of play.
At the moment we have none who just comes in and owns it up from the start, and my guess is that unless we see that, the era of TBLS (though mostly LS) will last for a long time. yeah
I remember when Flash was new to the scene and he cheesed a lot, people complained a lot. When he stopped cheesing and played macro games, people complained.
Flash has made so much progress and new strategies and builds for terran and people still complain, but maybe they're just antifans ^^
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BaBy, TurN and Bogus are the next wave of Terran IMO, but that's not going to be for at least another 3 years or so. Flash is still young, and is going to remain on top of the game for years to come.
Zerg... Shine is great but needs to improve his macro game a bit (yes, he does have one, and it's decent, but he still relies a bit too much on hydrabusts.) Hydra himself had that monster streak but has dropped off since, I'd say the best candidate to replace the Dong is definitely Neo.G_Soulkey.
Protoss is a little harder. By.Sun is decent but not spectacular yet. Paralyze is overrated due to his (admittedly wonderful) hairstyle. free, Snow, and Stats are all basically known at this point, and free's slumping hard, Snow's PvZ is still way too shaky, and Stats is solid but uninspiring. Tyson, Brave, and Grape are all nowhere near good enough to consider themselves in the discussion (Brave's getting better, but still.) I'd say Taek Bang is going to be around for a good while yet.
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On January 25 2011 18:05 gongryong wrote:NO. Let me fix that for you... There
...That's real nice and all and I'mma let you finish, but + Show Spoiler + IS THE BEST OF ALL TIME... ALL TIME
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Bisu was gone for years. Stork was always mr silver. Flash has only been dominating the latter of those years. Only JD was on top of the game this whole timespan.
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fantasy could be up with these four imo. his pick is over 2300 too..
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Broodwar scene is quite boring right now if you're not a fan of TaekBangLeeSsang.
It sucks if you are a fan of A class players like Calm, Kal, Leta, Free, Zero, etc
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1019 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:21 FakePlasticLove wrote: Broodwar scene is quite boring right now if you're not a fan of TaekBangLeeSsang.
It sucks if you are a fan of A class players like Calm, Kal, Leta, Free, Zero, etc
I agree. I really hope OSL and MSL start featuring different people. I'm afraid people will lose interest in BW if TBLS is always getting the glory. At least flash isn't in the finals this season, I wouldn't have watched it.
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On January 26 2011 06:05 Navane wrote: Bisu was gone for years. Stork was always mr silver. Flash has only been dominating the latter of those years. Only JD was on top of the game this whole timespan.
This. Everyone seems to forget that JD is practically dominating since 2007. Even when Bisu did beat Savior and was considered the best JD was there (their MSL game anyone?). When Flash won his first OSL, JD was still there on top. And even now when everyone considers Flash the best. JD is there with him.
All hail Dong
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On January 26 2011 00:08 Kipsate wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 23:38 Yodo wrote:Jaedong has been playing subpar recently JD is fine. Why do ppl loose their trust to players so fast? Like I said, he is not playing like he used to(e.g dominating his opponents in a brutal manner). That does not mean that he is bad, hell he is still the nr 1 zerg, its just that compared to how he used to play it is not as good. cant be that other players also get better hm? no.
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On January 26 2011 07:01 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 06:05 Navane wrote: Bisu was gone for years. Stork was always mr silver. Flash has only been dominating the latter of those years. Only JD was on top of the game this whole timespan. This. Everyone seems to forget that JD is practically dominating since 2007. Even when Bisu did beat Savior and was considered the best JD was there (their MSL game anyone?). When Flash won his first OSL, JD was still there on top. And even now when everyone considers Flash the best. JD is there with him. All hail Dong
But Stork have been hanging there from the year of 2004, it should take into account.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:21 FakePlasticLove wrote: Broodwar scene is quite boring right now if you're not a fan of TaekBangLeeSsang.
It sucks if you are a fan of A class players like Calm, Kal, Leta, Free, Zero, etc
You said it.
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On January 26 2011 05:13 StylishVODs wrote: Sometimes you can just feel that a new S-class player is rising. When Flash entered the pro-scene he went 15-2 over the first 3 months of play.
At the moment we have none who just comes in and owns it up from the start, and my guess is that unless we see that, the era of TBLS (though mostly LS) will last for a long time.
Keep track of dream.t)check and sHy. It's a bit too early to tell but those players just debuted a few months ago and are already getting 70-80% winrates against b-teamers.
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United States1719 Posts
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On January 26 2011 07:29 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 07:01 Art.FeeL wrote:On January 26 2011 06:05 Navane wrote: Bisu was gone for years. Stork was always mr silver. Flash has only been dominating the latter of those years. Only JD was on top of the game this whole timespan. This. Everyone seems to forget that JD is practically dominating since 2007. Even when Bisu did beat Savior and was considered the best JD was there (their MSL game anyone?). When Flash won his first OSL, JD was still there on top. And even now when everyone considers Flash the best. JD is there with him. All hail Dong But Stork have been hanging there from the year of 2004, it should take into account.
Yeah, but there have been multiple times in that stretch where we thought that stork was never going to return to form. Jaedong has never fallen off of anyone's radar in the BW scene since he started being the Tyrant
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