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Hey guys,
Since the discussion on Filthycup's topic has been closed I thought it would be interesting to have our own topic to discuss about that.
I think foreign community really need to have a good talk about that, and if we all stay open minded and calm something really nice where everyone is happy can come up with that. First, i want to say that i'm part of the "top foreigners" (not the top 5 but i'm an "ok player"), i was for a ban of scan for every foreigner tournaments, but after discussing with some of you against, by PM, i changed a bit my mind. Maybe it was because of some "conflicts of interest" or not being open enough on the subject.
Do koreans have a significant advantage compared to foreigners ?
I think the answer is : YES And even Scan would agree with that, i'm explaining why :
- They can understand every shoutcasts from PL, ASL, etc..
- They can understand every stream from pros (Flash Jaedong Bisu...) explaining what they are doing, why the lost, answering to questions ...
- They have access to pros' streams way easier than us, i don't know for you guys but 2/3 i can't properly watch the stream due to lag or stream not even starting.
- They have access to fish (korean server) way easier than all of us, and even if you can now login a bit easier,1/2 of your game it's lagging and you have to leave and find another opponent. If your opponent knows that you are a foreigner a lot of them disc hack, you got the loss and you can't even make a complain because admins will ban you from fish (yes, they are dicks)
- They have the highest level and share some replays, tutorials (some of them have been partially subtitle but only few), they can find practice partner to discuss after the game what they did wrong.
- Starcraft has been recognized has a "sport" in korea and is more accepted, parents even if they don't like it, knows you can make a living with that so It's way easier to explain to your parents/family/friends that you are playing 10hours a day to be the best and maybe make a living of that. When you are foreigner you play 10hours a day to make 10$ a month ? how can they accept/understand that ?
Anyways, i'm gonna stop here, but i think there are plenty others exemples like that. I don't know if i convinced some of you but for me it is clearly an advantage they have over foreigners.
Now we have come to that, is it necessary to ban koreans from our tournaments ?
This point remind me a lot from some topics about having tournaments for ladies only. Males has no advantage so why would you have some tournaments for ladies only ? Because so few of them are playing. To attract them, having tour only for girls can help some girls to try the game, make some friends easier and having the goal to be the "best girl on sc2 or csgo...".
I think it's similar to some extend. When i play in a foreign tournaments, i wanna know who is the best foreigner, but with koreans allowed it's just about who played the korean(s) in last.
I want some rivalriy, that can't exist FOR THE MOMENT, with koreans.
It may be fun to watch for viewers, but from a player perspective it became boring fast and you start to wonder why playing in those tournaments instead of playing on fish where you can play some of the best players without having to wait between matchs.
I think when the community will be bigger it's gonna be fine to have ALL our tournaments open to koreans.
But we have to keep in mind that Scan who is korean and have advantage over foreigners isn't a former pro and didn't get all this time in gaming house and coachs. He trained by himself and get good because of hours of training, but even with that it didn't succeeded to qualify to ASL and all other tournaments because pro also got HUGE advantage from their practice. On top of that Scan have been part ot TL's community for years now and really helped us. How if that fair for him to ban him from our tournaments ?
I have to admit that i hadn't think about Scan or semi-pro's perspective. So with that in mind I think a good solution would be to have maybe 50/50 of our tournaments open and closed to koreans or maybe 75/25 ? Or maybe organize some tournaments without money or only 10 or 20$ for the winner and then a "super tournament" with all winners in it and the "real prize pool" ?
What do you guys think about it ?
OUT OF TOPIC
I've been thinking about this for a while but what do you guys think about organizing some show match between some pro against 2 top foreigners in team melee mode ? I think it could be really fun to watch and really fun to play for pros and top foreigners.
PS : I also would also like to add that the community is small and fragile, you can't come up as an organizer and don't listen to the community or wanna change everything that have been done until now. We really need to work together organizers, players and viewers ! Anyways, thanks to Filthycup and Shamtoo even if they did some things wrong (for me), they did their best, always have been patient and polite and invested a lot of time and money for us, so thanks you guys.
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Honestly I don't think it will matter in the end. The organizers will do as they see fit themselves. It all depends on what they want from the tourney.
Everything you mentioned about the Korean player state is correct, and it is a fact that foreigners cannot really compete with that. Basically there is not a single person who has followed BW properly who would deny this. And I'm sure that everyone here understands that the people with 20-50 posts in the other thread who tried to sell it as a state of mind and whatnot honestly have no clue what they're talking about. Hopefully we won't be getting such talks in this thread.
But yeah, in the end - the organizers pick what they want -- do they want people to show the absolute top levels of play that the korean(s) can bring, or do they want to see games that are more even. It is basically the same thing with viewers aswell. We have people who want to see close games, and we have people who just want to see how good someone can play and dismantle opponents who are below their skill level.
In an ideal world, I would say that there would be tournaments for both types. Both foreigner only and "koreans allowed" tourneys. And hopefully the korean allowed tourneys would have more than 1-2 koreans in them, and we'd actually only see 1-2 foreigners there instead, so we'd have close KR vs KR games, and the eventual foreigner who'd want to test himself.
That being said, I personally would probably want to see some larger restrictions aswell. Like back in the day, some tourneys where A ranked players aren't allowed, because let's be honest, the foreigner-only tournaments will only have some 4-5 people who would have a chance to win too. And most of them are zerg which doesn't hold up the interest of viewers for long.
also the team melee idea sounds fun. I'd love to see it.
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Ban koreans from tournaments
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First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
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I am totally fine with foreigners only tournaments. Just make it clear in the tournament name. Filthy Cup was open to all. It should not change, that would be really bad for Scan and for the foreigners aswell, since it makes them look bad if the rules have to be changed.
We can come up with more reasons to have foreigners only tournaments, like if you have players from EU in the tournament, the connection just becomes too bad to korea. So NA/EU only. NA only, EU only etc... If there are more player when SC:R hits you probably could split regions for timezones aswell, have qualifiers for KR/NA/EU, small weekly cup, maybe just points to qualify for monthly final, where all regions meet.
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Dominican Republic589 Posts
Just allow no progamers koreans. just amateurs ones.
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It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals).
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On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy.
I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair.
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Germany3128 Posts
On June 13 2017 21:10 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy. I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair. So if the Nr. 1 ranked tennis player in the world has a better training environment than all the other tennis players he should be banned?
I honestly have no problem with banning Korean 'pros' but this whole topic isn't about 'Should we ban Koreans from foreign tournaments' but it's only about 'Should we ban Scan from foreign tournaments' which is just wrong in my opinion.
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On June 13 2017 21:25 TheNewEra wrote:
I honestly have no problem with banning Korean 'pros' but this whole topic isn't about 'Should we ban Koreans from foreign tournaments' but it's only about 'Should we ban Scan from foreign tournaments' which is just wrong in my opinion.
please read the name of the thread and stick to that discussion.
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banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
edit~ banning scan is even MORE dumb because the dude studies in the US and speaks perfect english lol... he's basically a foreigner! at that point people are just banning him because he's too good for them and they want false validation. i will shit talk any tourny that bans koreans just so that they can "ban scan," because it's idiotic and very, VERY noob.
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On June 13 2017 21:09 BonitiilloO wrote: Just allow no progamers koreans. just amateurs ones.
korean pro gamers do not play in our tournaments anyway. allowing amateur koreans is what is happening right now. The difference between amateur koreans and our top players is too large to ignore, which is why we have players unhappy with the current situation.
On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
counter-argument --- Imagine you're playing in a counter strike tournament. There are 10 teams in the tournament. Your team has a 10% chance to win the whole thing.
Then a team comes along where everyone has 20 times more HP than your team.
Is that fair for competition? Do you think the other 9 teams feel motivated to compete? Before you say that it's not a valid comparison - it really is. The skill difference really is that large currently.
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On June 13 2017 21:32 abuse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 21:09 BonitiilloO wrote: Just allow no progamers koreans. just amateurs ones. korean pro gamers do not play in our tournaments anyway. allowing amateur koreans is what is happening right now. The difference between amateur koreans and our top players is too large to ignore, which is why we have players unhappy with the current situation. Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned." counter-argument --- Imagine you're playing in a counter strike tournament. There are 10 teams in the tournament. Your team has a 10% chance to win the whole thing. Then a team comes along where everyone has 20 times more HP than your team. Is that fair for competition? Do you think the other 9 teams feel motivated to compete? Before you say that it's not a valid comparison - it really is. The skill difference really is that large currently.
koreans aren't inherently superior to foreigners, they just take the game seriously and don't sit in the iccup 2x2 channel talking to peruvians for 5 hours a day. they spend the time practicing and getting better. so no, your counter argument isn't the same situation at all, because it's not a systemic issue, it's a player issue.
if you want to have a tournament that is just for noobs that don't take the game seriously and don't want to put the time in learning korean to play with better people, then at least call a spade a spade. but don't be surprised when people call your tournament contestants noobs
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No, there's really no discussion to be had. If you think that speaking Korean or that living in Korea is an advantage then go there and learn Korean if it's that important to you. Nothing stops you from that, there are different ways to do it. There's no insurmountable advantages that Koreans have and that you cant have. If you wish to create an amateur only tournament, why not. But the definition of amateur shouldn't be non-Korean. I despise people who are okay with thinking that they suck so bad that they need special categories for absolute no reason.
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On June 13 2017 21:39 Endymion wrote: koreans aren't inherently superior to foreigners, they just take the game seriously and don't sit in the iccup 2x2 channel talking to peruvians for 5 hours a day. they spend the time practicing and getting better. so no, your counter argument isn't the same situation at all, because it's not a systemic issue, it's a player issue.
You're just wrong. Completely and utterly wrong and I don't know what else to say to that. Also even if you were right about foreigners just chatting and sucking on their own thumb instead of playing, my argument would still stand, because the fact that the skill difference is preposterous still remains.
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On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
edit~ banning scan is even MORE dumb because the dude studies in the US and speaks perfect english lol... he's basically a foreigner! at that point people are just banning him because he's too good for them and they want false validation. i will shit talk any tourny that bans koreans just so that they can "ban scan," because it's idiotic and very, VERY noob.
How is that the death of competition ? So you would like to see a boxing match man vs girl ? You don't think one of them has an indisputable advantage over the other ? Of course it's useful to have some categories in sports. Another exemple dumber : if there are no banning then when you start soccer at the age of 6 you should be able to play with pro ? How fun is would be to have a team of children to play against FC Barcelona...
I'm not asking to ban koreans for life just from time to time, to emulate foreign community.
Anyway what do you think of my proposals ?
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If the tournament is organized to attract foreigners and lower levels, then make it foreign only. You can also make korean only tournaments. But let's face it, foreigners have no chance even vs ex b-teamers, semi pros or training partners. I quit watching few tournaments just becouse it's not too exciting to see another level player bashing foreigners.
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On June 13 2017 20:53 greenterran wrote: Ban koreans from tournaments
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lol, warned for a opinion thats relevent to the topic?
And i don't think we should ban any koreans. From a perspective of a player that wants to improve I think its vital to have them challenge us.
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No.
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On June 13 2017 21:47 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 21:31 Endymion wrote: banning based on race or gender is the death of competition and should be avoided at all costs imo. it completely invalidates the competitors involved because there will always be the qualification of "yeah but if there were koreans the number 1 player would have gotten owned."
edit~ banning scan is even MORE dumb because the dude studies in the US and speaks perfect english lol... he's basically a foreigner! at that point people are just banning him because he's too good for them and they want false validation. i will shit talk any tourny that bans koreans just so that they can "ban scan," because it's idiotic and very, VERY noob. How is that the death of competition ? So you would like to see a boxing match man vs girl ? You don't think one of them has an indisputable advantage over the other ? Of course it's useful to have some categories in sports. Another exemple dumber : if there are no banning then when you start soccer at the age of 6 you should be able to play with pro ? How fun is would be to have a team of children to play against FC Barcelona... I'm not asking to ban koreans for life just from time to time, to emulate foreign community. Anyway what do you think of my proposals ? it's the death of competition because imo there aren't physical limitations between genders in esports, although i will admit that there are very systematic limitations for women trying to get into games (actually only one, being that it's extremely difficult to find good practice partners as a woman because the majority of guys will try to "practice with you" with the intent to sleep with you in the long run instead of actually trying to improve themselves).
as far as racial distinctions go, you don't see "white only" running competitions since the majority of strong runners are black, do you?
additionally, it's not common to see race or gender based distinctions in Go or chess tournies, so why in broodwar?
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