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On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ? Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
No I don't think money is the issue. The issue really seems to be validation and reputation/winning. That's really the only remaining thing I can think of as to why someone would not want to play versus Scan or any other play significantly beyond their skill level. From a fun standpoint, playing BW is fun win or lose, and there are still many close games to be played in any tournament. Playing against higher skill is obviously great for learning and becoming a better player.
We've already noted money isn't really a big issue.
That leaves only "not wanting to lose" as a reason for not wanting to play against players at a significant level beyond ones own.
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On June 14 2017 05:41 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 21:10 KenZy wrote:On June 13 2017 21:05 XsebT wrote: First, why Koreans are better is not really important. They just are. Second, by "banning Koreans" do we really just mean "ban scan"? I would not like that. Scan is an active part of the foreign community. Would he make some tournaments less exciting? Sure. But that's not a reason to ban a guy. I think you are wrong, why koreans are better matter. Would you like to see girl vs men in tennis ? or in boxing ? No, because it's not fair they don't have the same abilities, if the koreans are better because they play more then it's fair, if they are better because of their environment then, it's not fair. That's just life, life isn't fair. Most of the great Kenyan runners are born at altitude and raised there; which is great for increasing lung function and altering blood composition. Not to mention that genetically most the Kenyan runners have naturally favorable traits; small, highly placed calves, thin bone structures, etc. Nobody suggests to ban these people. In some sports, like golf, soccer, tennis, etc. a rich person can have access to a private coach and elite training from the time they are 5 years old. We don't suggest banning them. There is really only one case in which we except bans. Gender. There is always a protected female category, because the genetic advantages of being male of two overwhelming in most sports, and the genetic bases for gender is obviously damn near 100%. Any other advantage we accept as just inherent "luck of the draw". People will always have easier times being good at certain things compared to other people because of a combination of their genetics and their environment. In all but the most extreme cases (gender) they are not banned from competition. Again, the one side to this is competition by skill level. Many competitive activities do have skilled separate leagues and competitions. I.E. "open" league, then next category of players, then next category, them next category, on down to total beginners.
Your comparison doesn't work, running is fine outside Kenyan, there plenty of runners. That's not the case for BW, I know life isn't fair, i wouldn't care scan playing in our tournaments if we had plenty of them and plenty of players but that's not the case. And instead there are less and less players in those 2 tournaments, i'm trying to help them finding a solution, i don't care Scan has an advantage, i don't care i'm not gonna have the money, but i care about the community.
The players you are calling whiner, bitchs are the only one registring and playing in those tournaments, even if it's not even fun for them but just to keep it alive. And when we come with arguments to help them having more players you are all insulting them i seriously don't get it. Sometimes it's hard to be part of this community....
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On June 14 2017 05:39 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote: Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms. Me too. But there *is* a lot of whining going on in here, from you and from others. I understand you feel there's a problem, and want the scene to grow, but I also think there's a lot of greed and bad attitudes around this thread. Can you tell me where you saw a bad attitude from me ? I can't say specifically about you, but one of the other players have recently DQ'd himself as soon as he realized that he was facing against Scan during the tournament (and have explicitly said so). Then there's always this constant complaints about allowing or banning certain players (Scan, in this case), and this isn't exclusive to any recent tournaments, it dates back to 2011 when people were discussing whether to allow Scan to participate in ISL, then moving the discussion to ban Sziky from ISL.
It doesn't help when others have presented a counter-argument or a different opinion than ones presented, you guys respond with "oh they're the obvious trolls" or "they don't know what they're talking about because they don't even participate in these tournaments". If you're just going to shut out any voice that doesn't favor you and just mark them as trolls, why should I believe that you're trying to discuss things in constructive manner? This is why others are seeing this as huge whining fest.
P.S. Second point ("people saying things without playing in tournaments") may be right, but just because they don't participate in the tournaments doesn't mean that they're all speaking out of their ass (for myself, my analysis of the foreigner mindset comes from hours of talking with several former KeSPA players as well as coaches/team managers, including someone who managed a foreign player and had a lengthy discussion on that back in 2010).
P.S.S. Growing the scene is always good, but do realize you're one of the 'top' foreigners representing the scene right now. And also, do realize that I'm speaking directly from my mind because I want to see someone go toe-to-toe with Scan. But with everyone just having the mindset of "Oh, if I play against Scan, then I'll lose for sure", why should I even cheefor the foreigners with such mindset when Scan tries hard to participate and win every match that is presented to him?
Point being said, the solutions presented in this thread is a nice start. With SC:R coming up with different tiers, just like SC2, it'll be easier to create tournaments based on skill bracket using ladder as the starting point.
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Russian Federation344 Posts
On June 14 2017 05:05 KenZy wrote:
You got this wrong, problem is not to be better. It's to help foreign community growing.
That what i am telling to you. Just make a tourney like you want. Don't try to tell someone how they should do it. It won't help. It's not your goal as a player.
Make restriction to D-B Fish rank only. Or make it free for all. Its up to you as an organizer.
To grow community is what blizzard is doing now by making remastered. Just wait or help to improve infrastructure of remastered like TT1 is doing.
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Yes its our goal as a experienced players who have been in this community for years to criticise if its needed and give hints and explaining things if something is going wrong. It doesnt hurt you that korean scene is alive and our sucks but maybe it hurts some of us. If u just wanna sit and wait, dont tell others to watch how its getting more poor. Blizzard is doing what they doing because its business, how they were taking care of bw in past few years?
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Germany3128 Posts
On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ? Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits.
For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)?
Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
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On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ? Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms.
Ok! Host seasonal tournaments without money. 2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion, 2017 Fall Non-KR BW Champion, and continue. Do some a little bit of interviews from each players for audiences and talk about goals
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Russian Federation344 Posts
On June 14 2017 06:07 trutaCz wrote: Yes its our goal as a experienced players who have been in this community for years to criticise if its needed and give hints and explaining things if something is going wrong. It doesnt hurt you that korean scene is alive and our sucks but maybe it hurts some of us. If u just wanna sit and wait, dont tell others to watch how its getting more poor.
So you are trying to say, that those two guys filthy and schamtoo have to change rules to fit your desires or just back off?
So if i understood well you think that hosting free for all tournament is hurting foreigner BW scene? :D
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95% users of this forum can't even read properly. I have been outclassed by koreans all competition i participated, so?
What the fuck, what my desires. Go and fucking check how many players dropped and then start using ur brain once again.
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On June 14 2017 06:10 LaStScan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ? Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms. Ok! Host seasonal tournaments without money. 2017 Summer Non-KR BW Champion, 2017 Fall Non-KR BW Champion, and continue. Do some a little bit of interviews from each players for audiences and talk about goals
I don't get it, you are asking me to organize tournaments ? What's the reasoning ?
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Besides, how many foreigners are there who can compete with the likes of eonzerg and trutacz.
Are there a lot of players that don't compete at filthy right now that are of equal skill to eonzerg and trutacz but don't participate because of scan? If all the players that apparently don't play because of scan would lose to eonzerg and trutacz as well, why should they join only because scan isn't allowed?
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On June 14 2017 06:12 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 06:07 trutaCz wrote: Yes its our goal as a experienced players who have been in this community for years to criticise if its needed and give hints and explaining things if something is going wrong. It doesnt hurt you that korean scene is alive and our sucks but maybe it hurts some of us. If u just wanna sit and wait, dont tell others to watch how its getting more poor. So you are trying to say, that those two guys filthy and schamtoo have to change rules to fit your desires or just back off? So if i understood well you think that hosting free for all tournament is hurting foreigner BW scene? :D
Do you even read what we wrote ? There are less and less players in those tournaments, 8 players in the last one. And in those tournaments the only one playing are us, the one complaining about those tournaments.
ONCE AGAIN we are not asking for a ban but maybe a compromise to attract more people, if we continue like this there will be 2 players in 3weeks in those tournaments, is that what you want ? It seems no, so find a solution to attract people, if for you the solution is to keep what we are doing and having less and less player then you are not really smart.
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TLADT24917 Posts
If this thread gets derailed and posters start insulting each other, it's going to get closed and warnings/bans will be handed out. In other words, please express your points well and play nice please. We all want to find a good solution to this but there's no guarantee that there is one that will satisfy everyone either.
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On June 14 2017 06:17 Keniji wrote: Besides, how many foreigners are there who can compete with the likes of eonzerg and trutacz.
Are there a lot of players that don't compete at filthy right now that are of equal skill to eonzerg and trutacz but don't participate because of scan? If all the players that apparently don't play because of scan would lose to eonzerg and trutacz as well, why should they join only because scan isn't allowed?
From what i know, tournaments are/was (before 1.18) made almost everyday and got "easily" 8people in it without any prize or some ladder points. Now we have a real tournaments with a "big" prize money (for a bw tournaments) and we can hardly have 10 players. I wonder why and looking for solution, or soon we won't even have 8 players in it and what's gonna happen ?
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On June 14 2017 06:15 trutaCz wrote: 95% users of this forum can't even read properly. I have been outclassed by koreans all competition i participated, so?
What the fuck, what my desires. Go and fucking check how many players dropped and then start using ur brain once again.
So what banning Scan will change? Still nobody will beat guys like bonyth, eon or you. So there will still be just a handful of top foreigners playing each other and not a single fucking thing will change. Community won't grow shit. The only difference is that you will be "the best". And don't tell me that rest of players stopped playing just because of Scan.
Using this logic I would like to ban all top foreigners so I also can win some tournaments. Let the community grow!
You can clearly see that this logic is stupid, and banning anyone is not going to help the scene grow. It will only divide the scene further. There is a ton of other stuff you guys can do to help the community. Something like translation thread, some guides, maybe tournaments, or just improve your game and beat Scan - that would be something.
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On June 14 2017 06:22 KenZy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 06:17 Keniji wrote: Besides, how many foreigners are there who can compete with the likes of eonzerg and trutacz.
Are there a lot of players that don't compete at filthy right now that are of equal skill to eonzerg and trutacz but don't participate because of scan? If all the players that apparently don't play because of scan would lose to eonzerg and trutacz as well, why should they join only because scan isn't allowed? From what i know, tournaments are/was (before 1.18) made almost everyday and got "easily" 8people in it without any prize or some ladder points. Now we have a real tournaments with a "big" prize money (for a bw tournaments) and we can hardly have 10 players. I wonder why and looking for solution, or soon we won't even have 8 players in it and what's gonna happen ?
In my opinion, we should just let the organizers decide what they want to do with their tournaments. If they invest their time and money on it, they have the right to have the final word on who they want to accept in it and how they want to organise it, and once their decision is made it is not our place to criticize it... As for the players, they decide if they want to join or not.
I don't see how the tournaments that they hosted could be hurting the foreign bw community...... MAYBE they are not as "developing the bw community" as you would wish them to, BUT they are still better than no tournaments at all?
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On June 14 2017 06:32 Netto. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 06:15 trutaCz wrote: 95% users of this forum can't even read properly. I have been outclassed by koreans all competition i participated, so?
What the fuck, what my desires. Go and fucking check how many players dropped and then start using ur brain once again. So what banning Scan will change? Still nobody will beat guys like bonyth, eon or you. So there will still be just a handful of top foreigners playing each other and not a single fucking thing will change. Community won't grow shit. The only difference is that you will be "the best". And don't tell me that rest of players stopped playing just because of Scan. Using this logic I would like to ban all top foreigners so I also can win some tournaments. Let the community grow! You can clearly see that this logic is stupid, and banning anyone is not going to help the scene grow. It will only divide the scene further. There is a ton of other stuff you guys can do to help the community. Something like translation thread, some guides, maybe tournaments, or just improve your game and beat Scan - that would be something.
Idk where i wrote to ban Scan, but yeah people cant read. How can you know who and why is not playing/stopped playing this tour if your are not common with what is going on? If you want to test it out go ask people one by one why they are not playing. I think i've done something to community by streaming my games, show my games in tournaments, helping others, sometime hosting and helping with tours, sharing replays.
Tournaments cant hurt the community by definition. They can raise up it, but it is not working. Tournament organizers most likely also host them for some reason, purpose.
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On June 14 2017 06:32 Netto. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 06:15 trutaCz wrote: 95% users of this forum can't even read properly. I have been outclassed by koreans all competition i participated, so?
What the fuck, what my desires. Go and fucking check how many players dropped and then start using ur brain once again. So what banning Scan will change? Still nobody will beat guys like bonyth, eon or you. So there will still be just a handful of top foreigners playing each other and not a single fucking thing will change. Community won't grow shit. The only difference is that you will be "the best". And don't tell me that rest of players stopped playing just because of Scan. Using this logic I would like to ban all top foreigners so I also can win some tournaments. Let the community grow! You can clearly see that this logic is stupid, and banning anyone is not going to help the scene grow. It will only divide the scene further. There is a ton of other stuff you guys can do to help the community. Something like translation thread, some guides, maybe tournaments, or just improve your game and beat Scan - that would be something.
You right, but then why iccup tournaments without money and without being scheduled can easily have 8 players in it ?
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On June 14 2017 06:09 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 05:34 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:27 CecilSunkure wrote:On June 14 2017 05:26 KenZy wrote:On June 14 2017 05:17 EndingLife wrote: Dat European logic tho... What do you mean by that ? Sure american logic is way better, you can't have access to all the knoledge from korean ? Lean korean. Okay. He means euro posters are showing some kind of superiority in posts. Like they deserve the #1 prize money. And yeah. American logic: you have a problem then fix it. Stop whining. Go learn Korean. That's a pretty American attitude. Seriously guys if we make constructiv critisism we are whining, and we just want the money ? Guys like Eonzerg, Trutacz, Bonyth, myself we played for 10years without earning anything but maybe 10$ we play because we love the game and our community. We don't fucking care about money, stop telling us we want the money, that's stupid. We just want the community growing and those tournaments are not helping while they could have been a succeed, we are just giving our opinion and making some constructive critisisms. Well then you guys should pull this through to the end if you want to boycott tournaments like Filthy BW Cup because of Scan/possible other amateur Koreans. If you want to have such a hard stance it's fine but then be firm on it. Otherwise it feels like as if the foreign top amateurs are hypocrits. For example: BisuDagger just announced yesterday an awesome series of 4 teammatches between Foreign Allstars and Team Ajae (basically the Korean OldBoys). Maybe we can argue about this but those guys are in parts legends and probably all on a skill level above Scan. But then you see the lineup for Team Foreign All-Stars. Trutacz is in there. And he has to play against even stronger Koreans than Scan. So what is the reasoning for this? I'm picking Trutacz now as an example, because he is really vocal about this whole 'Banning Koreans' topic but this may as well fit to other foreigners. I mean the chance is higher that Trutacz loses all his games, than just winning one there. Why is he playing there if he is heavily outclassed...(by the way he would get some sure money there, but not implying anything)? Don't get me wrong I understand the reasoning of the foreign top amateurs why they don't want Scan in the tournaments, even if I disagree with it, but if you don't have a firm stance on this and only cherrypick which tournaments/series you boycott because of Koreans, then these foreigners 'pros' will just look like douches.
Oh no. Definitely wrong. Some Ajaes were good in the old history, but not in 2017. They struggle at C or barely get B.
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Russian Federation139 Posts
I will DQ every possible time i will meet scan or equal level korean player in a tourney. Nothing personal. Nothing racial. Just a waste of time. I understand my potential level of skill. Comparing my free time to spend for bw practicing and amount of good practice partners i understand i WILL never be able to beat a next class player - like scan etc. In some time may be i can fairly battle eon, bonyth and so on. But korean amateurs spend waaaaay tooo more time for practicing.
But still let organizers choose. For best of foreigners to beat a korean amateur is a good challenge. For other foreigners to compete for a prize with amount of same skill level players is a good rivalry. Both can coexist.
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