On April 03 2015 06:18 DMarS wrote: Lol, these are great advices, i mean, i'm just losing every single tvp i play. Learning the early game it's a great thing i can practice for now. But it's simply.... God, it makes me almost hit the pc sometimes :l Now woud be very generous and great an advice on how to not rage, or get mad, or be stressed and under pressure every game :D Any help?
This I can help with as I used to get really mad. Just forget about winning and losing. Forget about whatever rank you are. Just play each game as it's own entity and try your hardest. You may lose, but who cares. You had fun!
i used to just bruise my hand on desk or walls every now and then. good pillow use can mitigate the damage you sustain from tvp so i recommend keeping something soft to punch in melee range at all times.
I'm uploading fpvods on youtube, maybe you can help me more with this to improve. And, yea, those are good advices. I just try to concentrate the more in a game, I'm just not that adapted yet to TvP
Well first of all that was one of the lamest protoss's I have ever seen. If you scout toss first and he 12 nexus's you should bunker rush him. When you have 3 marines move out with them + 5 scv. Rally vults and marines and dont add your machine shop till around 3 vultures. Once you get pretty decent at this sort of micro it is very hard for a protoss to hold off a bunker rush with a 12 nexus.
It is hard to evaluate the game since you were behind significantly off of openings but it seems besides that you are on the right track build order wise. You just want to touch up things like scv distribution constant worker/unit production.
I would try to focus on a shorter build order and work on mastering that first. GO for something like 2 base 4 fact, 2 base 5 fact etc. Make sure your scv production is rock solid so you get your mineral income nicely and are able to produce a lot of vults (vults are super powerful in 2 base pushes when unit numbers are smaller). Then do it over and over again to get a good feel for the terran "push". 3 base and longer games are very difficult for a novice terran and it is more difficult to grasp the key concepts of the terran race when playin for those
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMQzsjlWc1GbBHqWtPoQEWQ Check my channel pls, it´s only BW FPVOD's At this point, I've got only 1:1 videos, ignore the Hotkey and Scot trainer test i did. Pls help me out. Honestly, i'm not looking for likes or subscribers. I want to improve. So, check it out, subscribe if you want, and bla bla, you know
On April 07 2015 05:11 DMarS wrote: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMQzsjlWc1GbBHqWtPoQEWQ Check my channel pls, it´s only BW FPVOD's At this point, I've got only 1:1 videos, ignore the Hotkey and Scot trainer test i did. Pls help me out. Honestly, i'm not looking for likes or subscribers. I want to improve. So, check it out, subscribe if you want, and bla bla, you know
In one sentence you say you are not looking for subs, and the next sentence you say subscribe if you want O_o.
Subscribe IF YOU WANT AND BLA BLA, BECAUSE I DONT CARE ABOUT THEM. I'm not like a gosu to upload good quality fpvod's and ask for likes ir subscribers. I'm asking for help.
You need to clean up your build order, you need to at least get your first tank out on time.
I think a good rule of thumb for starting to learn tvp, is that besides not dying, the early game is primarily about massing tanks. I noticed you had alot of spare gas, add machine shops/factories if you have to: vultures are awesome and all, but you can't really push with them, and honestly in the early game, you pretty much want to have more tanks than vultures.
I frankly wouldn't bother messing around with dropships yet, I noticed your multitask really struggled and you never really massed enough tanks for the whole game to realistically even stay alive. If your opponent didn't have such atrocious macro he could have just walked straight into your nat and killed you. I felt like dropship harass distracted you from the basics of TvP and until you can amass a large enough army to at least push out, it's probably the thing you want to focus on at the moment.
First you really want to get to the stage where you have at least enough tanks to not die to a protoss charging into your nat (this is supposed to be pretty easy). The next step is you want enough tanks/vultures to actually start a push, pushes are the bread and butter of TvP, no amount of dropship/vulture harass is going to get around having to learn to push. So this is the sort of game state you should aim to reach if only to learn some of the core skills of TvP.
I would suggest using a build order like the 6 fact timing push. It's not very standard, and considered somewhat overaggressive in this day and age (in fact it's just not a great BO and you will lose lots), but it gets you to amass a fairly sizeable army and fight with it, which are two things at the core of TvP you really need to learn.
I really think sometimes, when i lose and see the large number of toss units that still attacking my natural, that macro is the really thing i must learn and practice more than anything right now. But my friend on brood war keep telling me to micro better, and to play ums maps. And macro is the key i guess, to defend well my 3th exp. Which I'm struggling so much :l Even more to mantain attention to the main and the other 2 exp, specially the 3th :c Sometimes, when i just lose and lose, i continue playing, but really effortless and barely concentrating on what I really need to do :l And i feel like i waste time playing like that, and that i really dont learn or practice well a goddamn thing. I really want to improve ;n; Thanks for the comment, I'll start with massing up, and do like 5 fac timing, ir maybe 6. I guess sometimes could work :D
First you really want to get to the stage where you have at least enough tanks to not die to a protoss charging into your nat (this is supposed to be pretty easy).
That was one of my thoughts when watching that 12 Nex/ DT vod. Yes the Protoss was a bastard and took out 2 tanks with dts, but after that you were super vulnerable to a more aggressively minded Protoss. There was only one tank on the high ground and a handful of vultures for quite a long time. I kept expecting more factories to go down or at least more tanks to be made, but instead a 3rd and drop tech was advanced. One shuttle loaded with zealots to pick off the tank and a control group of goons, have easily smashed the natural- and you didn't wall off the third for a very long time. Fortunately he didn't have an obs (because he went dt, I guess), because otherwise the third would have completely died and even then, a more aggressive Protoss could have sniped it at any time afterwards.
Yes macro is important, but smart building placement for siege tanks to hide behind can give Protoss a real headache if they try to push in.
I'm just a barely D+ Protoss, so take it as you will.
I would re-evaluate some of your game plans. What is your goal for getting into the midgame? You build your third early, but do not expand with it. You get two armouries, but you don't really have a comparable army. You go for drop tech, but after you've already made the third so drop tech is late, but then you still don't expand. (I'm also pretty sure you got goliath range super, super early.)
I'm not Terran, but I play against quite a few and to me, drop tech at this stage of the game is to put the protoss on their back foot and therefore likely is built prior to expanding to your third. Making your third first, then getting drop tech, and then still not expanding doesn't make much sense to me.
From the two videos I've seen, you aren't actually getting into the mineral lines with your drops and so you don't really put them behind economically. And this game, you actually put yourself very, very behind because you shoot up to 2000 minerals and 900 gas and capping at 70 supply for a very long time. Either your drop needs to come sooner when Protoss haven't already made cannons to defend or you might want to drop the idea of drops for the time being. It IS a fun play style, but the drops aren't really doing anything right now and if you aren't spending that money, the Protoss is just going to steam roll you with pure numbers. Instead of putting the Protoss behind, it's putting you behind. A cheaper alternative might be to just have more vulture raids on the ground, looking for holes, rather than specifically investing in drop technology. If you find a hole to exploit, well and good. If not, mine the map and keep macroing.
13:00 Again, you need an earlier supply depot wall at your third so protoss can't just walk up your ramp and clean out your entire army and snipe your cc. Also, I wonder what your scv count is at this stage, because less than a full control group of scv's were sent to your third, and there were almost no scvs left over- that suggest to me not enough scvs were made.
17:00 Don't forget to transfer workers to your third (a second time).
@21:00 So yeah, at this point Protoss has expanded across the entire map. But that, I think goes back to not being able to make a large enough army back when you were dropping ten minutes before. You simply couldn't push out onto the map because your army got built too late. Another thing to consider- mine out all the expansions the Protoss is likely to expand to. When they get cleared out, you at least have an idea when they are thinking of expanding. Of course the more mines out on the map, the better vision you have. But mining all the bases is a great starting point if you don't have the apm to mine out the entire map.
On April 08 2015 10:37 DMarS wrote: I really think sometimes, when i lose and see the large number of toss units that still attacking my natural, that macro is the really thing i must learn and practice more than anything right now. But my friend on brood war keep telling me to micro better, and to play ums maps. And macro is the key i guess, to defend well my 3th exp. Which I'm struggling so much :l Even more to mantain attention to the main and the other 2 exp, specially the 3th :c Sometimes, when i just lose and lose, i continue playing, but really effortless and barely concentrating on what I really need to do :l And i feel like i waste time playing like that, and that i really dont learn or practice well a goddamn thing. I really want to improve ;n; Thanks for the comment, I'll start with massing up, and do like 5 fac timing, ir maybe 6. I guess sometimes could work :D
I think the problem here is, your friend is just completely wrong. TvP is a slightly more micro intensive matchup than PvT, and you need to micro somewhat especially when your army is still small if you want to engage their army. But:
a) Thats not the same kind of micro as vulture harass, which is itself a nice skill to have, but the gains are marginal compared to having solid macro. It's worth improving your micro at some stage, you are not at that stage yet.
b) The point of micro intensive builds is to do economic damage and/or keep your opponent on the defensive. Eg to slow their economic expansion until you are ready to push out. T just doesn't have the micro intensive cheeses that can end the game like DT/Reaver drops or fast mutalisks, all the micro intensive strategies in TvP need to be followed up by a strong push or aggressive expansion (then into a strong push, so yeah, having lots of units and knowing how to use it always going to be important). So without solid macro, your fancy micro won't win you any games. Micro is flashy and impressive looking, but macro is effective.
c) When you don't have the multitask to effectively macro/expand/position your army/maintain map awareness and presence/harass at the same time, the first thing you drop is the harass. It has the least gain for the most effort.
So the tl;dr version is: Ignore your friend, your feeling is correct, what you need most to improve is your macro. Not only is micro pointless without solid macro, you aren't even practising the more useful kind of micro at the moment. When you can consistently get into the midgame with a large army and push, you need to learn to position your army for pushes/lay mines/battlefield micro. Until then, concentrate solely on being able to get to that point of the game as consistently and as cleanly as possible.
Also just fyi the 6 fact push I was referring two is done off 2 bases and not three (eg just your nat and your main). Aside from being a pretty bad/all-in build order, it's also especially not suited to fighting spirit due to the safe 3rd bases. But it will get you to the midgame with a big army consistently (if you do it right), and gets you to a situation where you get to practice some of the more core elements of TvP (even if you are going to be probably at a build order disadvantage while doing it). Also means don't do any dropship harass, dropships off 2 bases means you have to do crippling damage or virtually guarantee an unwinnable economic deficit.
Once you can hit the timing for the push consistently and have had enough practice at actual pushing, then you can adjust by reducing factory count and pushing/securing your third instead of pushing to kill them. Eventually transitioning into taking a relatively early third base as is appropriate for the map. This will give you a chance to actually practice the more important skills in TvP even if you lose, rather than having to focus on more marginal skills(like dropship and vulture harass) that you don't really get to see the results of unless you have mastered the basics.
I think that you have to learn to macro first, and then you have to learn to micro. In that order. Controlling a huge Terran ball well is important, but having it in the first place is also important.
Even if you're playing aggressively, for example, with the style that attacks constantly, trading efficiently, while expanding - macro should still be learned first, because if you don't have enough units, then you don't have any units with which to be aggressive, and make good trades.
4 - 6 factory all ins, and dropship play from 1 or 2 bases, requires very good game sense and strategy in order to be anything but a cointoss all in. You have to know when the situation is right for it.
However, at low level, you can count on your opponent being bad, and force it to work. If you execute a 4 - 6 fact all in perfectly, or a 2 base dropship style perfectly, he will mess up, and you won't, which will make you win even when you "shouldn't" win - while learning useful skills like micro, macro, and multi tasking.
re micro: just don't lose tanks at the beginning. that's the most important thing, babysit those bad boys. In TvP every tank counts and every tank kill weakens you severely.
Almost in every TvP i get to late game, and then toss come up with carriers :l I make goliaths and vessel, but it´s really hard to counter it. I think some times o making wraiths with cloak, but not always works and it's a waste of minerals. What should i do in these cases? Carriers transition. And... what sould i do in a normal late game? Go for the toss expansions? Be only turtling, dropping? BTW, thanks, those advices you gave me really make me focus on what i have to practice (;
What maps are you playing, because a lot of maps aren't very good for Carriers and you should be able to win with tons of goliaths by catching them in the open. Also, when are discovering that they have Carriers- once they already have critical mass of 5+ ? Because that's quite hard. Whereas if you scout them making the tech switch, then you can easily mass Goliaths in time. I never go Carriers because my Carrier micro sucks and I just throw games that could've been won with more recalls and stasis.
Hard to tell without a replay though- if your other games are any indication, you probably got behind in the midgame with macro problems- the Carrier switch is likely just the coup de grace.
Also, I really don't think late game matters nearly so much as midgame. Fix your midgame and everything will go better in the late game. Very often there is nothing to fix in the late game because all the problems started much earlier- at least I find that is true at my level of play.
In this game, i think, i play better, and there's the carrier problem i talked about. I dunno, i just keep loosing with al toss i play, low or high level :l
That was nice timing getting your vultures into his third as his probes transferred in- he had a bad wall.
There's a lot of execution things on your build that you'll need an actual Terran to help you with at this point- like I think you are overmaking your first turrets too early, but another Terran would know better. However as a general note, your scv production is very, very sporadic. You go for long periods of time making none and then queue 5 all at once. And then go for long periods without producing scvs. As a result, your scv saturationquite sparse compared the Terrans I play against (like Qikz.) I'm not sure if you remade enough scvs after getting recalled- I wouldn't be surprised if you had 40ish workers mining rather than 50 or 60. This will result in much smaller armies than you ought to have.
I still haven't got to your Carriers yet- but there is sooo much room for improvement in the spending department and not getting supply capped at 126 and 150, etc that I think you'd be better off worrying about that. Or sitting at 120 supply with 3000/ 3000. You knocked out his 4th which is good, but I think you could have had 200/200 at that point and then you dropped down to 83 supply with 4000/3000 before finally reinforcing your army.
Also, Terran's typically don't mind expanding towards Protoss because the slow advance of Tanks can protect the tanks and your army isn't as spread out as you are expanding along your attack path. Whereas a Protoss wants to abuse a spread out Terran with recalls.
Ok, now the Carriers. From my perspective that was a suspicious amount of time to see no army whatsoever. After he failed to defend his fourth, there was not a peep from his army. His main should've been gathering a new army and you should've seen a new army rallying in his new main (his 5th) preparing to bust out. The space went for so long, that even if he didn't try to bust down, you ought to have seen a backstab or something. That should set off alarm bells and it would be worth scanning around to see if he is tech switching- if you find his new army- well and good- a scan in front of his natural ought to identify that. But a bigger army would've eliminated his fifth anyways and he'd have few if any mining bases. ....and at this point you don't really have an economy. Hm. Yeah, can't be more than 40 scvs. So yeah, seems like game over at 34 minutes as you have no economy and he has critical mass Carriers. (Except that he isn't good at Carrier micro like me and FS is super open and not particularly good for Carriers.) (Yes the game went 20 minutes longer and you maybe there was a slim chance you could've won because you killed a lot of his expos after that- but I don't think there's anything to learn in the last 20 minutes when if you fix the first 30 (or 20 or 15) you simply aren't in the same situation in the back 20.)
Well I have some good news, if you just keep working on getting the basics right, the carrier problem pretty much solves itself.
So far as I can see from that game, it is a multitasking issue. You are having trouble getting everything you need to do done. In your first push out, he charges your army and gets his army wiped out, that is the time to continue pushing. Instead you moved your tanks back to meet up with the rest of your forces, and generally dawdled in the middle of the map with your army. This gives him time to rebuild an army, secure his expansions and generally leverage any economic advantage he might.
For the most part, you are doing the right thing. Your sporadic scv building led you to have a much smaller army/economy than you should have had, so your timing was pretty far behind (though it wasn't a huge issue that game). Mostly what went wrong that game was in the lategame, you failed to keep up your macro, and you didn't exert enough pressure with your push.
Throughout most of the lategame you were stacking 2k+ min and gas. You even had the factory count to be churning out a decent sized army, you just needed to keep those factories running and actually building your army. Imagine if those 2k+ min/gas were actually goliathes, those carriers would have been completely useless.
Mostly, you simply need to practice more so you can get all the basics done better. If you find yourself stacking a couple thousand minerals, don't be afraid to add even more factories. We arn't all perfect about using production buildings like pros are, it's ok to go overboard on production facilities until you get better about using the ones you have. The other major thing is, you need to push much more forcefully, and much more quickly. Your army spent alot of time sitting in the middle of the map, or outside his base not doing anything. Idle time is time your army is spending not either defending your bases or pressuring theirs, and generally low pressure is exactly what the protoss wants from a terran in PvT. They want you to sit there while they take bases and build even more gateways to instantly recharge their army after they lose it. You need to reduce the amount of time your push spends sitting around doing nothing, and move more briskly to a point where you are either forcing them to fight it, or losing a base because they can't.
So the part about carriers being the problem that will solve itself. As you improve your SCV pumping, general macro and push speed you will put them under alot of pressure. You will get a good gauge of how big their army is, if at any time you feel like their army is smaller than it should be, build a round of goliathes, either they are in the middle of a carrier switch or their macro isn't great and you will run them over despite goliathes not being as good value against ground as vultures are. Basically, once you get the basics right, your push will give you information on the state of their army/economy which will almost always tell you if they are in the middle of a carrier switch.
Other than that, you seem to be on the right track, you need to pump scvs more consistently in the early game, pump army more consistently in the midgame and lategame, push quicker, have better map awareness with vultures roving the map, scan his bases to see tech/expos. Basically, you aren't doing anything particularly wrong about carriers, you just need tighten up your build and your push(which will require alot of practice, there's alot of stuff to do). By just getting more of the core parts of TvP done, it will effectively solve carriers. If carriers don't get you by suprise, they are honestly not very good on most maps.