Mirrors in SC:R Ladder - Page 5
Forum Index > Closed |
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
| ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:55 EndingLife wrote: Easy solution. Play Random! Easy solution: start hacking. When you think something is morally wrong... you kinda don't... Might be a new concept for you or something you haven't experienced, though. I remember at Blizzcon or w/e event it was where Testie or some random player was at. All of the Korean pros opted to use one of their first workers to scout with. Nice life. I'm going to propose my opponents need to use their toes to play. | ||
KenNage
Chile884 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:58 playa wrote: Easy solution: start hacking. When you think something is morally wrong... you kinda don't... Might be a new concept for you or something you haven't experienced, though. What? Git gud and stop whining. | ||
neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:07 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I dont believe race picking is solely about avoiding mirror matchups, its about picking the matchups that fit you best. I know people who want to do more mirrors instead of less, although they are statistically less common. And the suggestion I posted earlier would allow for either type of person, and not mess with the integrity of the ladder. I encourage every1 to post in the bnet forum if they care about this issue. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/starcraft/topic/20758647830 Interesting distribution of votes on that thread lol | ||
Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
Easy solution: start hacking. When you think something is morally wrong... you kinda don't... Might be a new concept for you or something you haven't experienced, though. :D Picking random is morally wrong. I guess someone is really salty because of a couple of losses to random. | ||
sethlin
United States8 Posts
How would that work? Let's say we are both Zerg players but each of us choose Terran in the case of a mirror. How does the system decide which one of us is going to play TvZ and which one of us is going to play ZvT? this is impractical because what if two players don't want to play a matchup? if a terran player does not want to play mirror and play protoss vs terran instead and another terran player that wants to play zerg vs terran instead does that mean they both play protoss vs zerg or not match vs each other? this type of double blind situation just creates needless complexity and longer search time for game for the sake of lazy players Coin flip basically, non-issue IMO. It will not inflate queue times, all that would need to happen is RNG chooses one to play the off-race, why would it have both play off-race? | ||
psd
France91 Posts
| ||
Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:36 ROOTFayth wrote: how is it an advantage if you need 3 times as much practice to reach the same level You don't need 3 times as much practice as the skills overlap but you kind of play random because you want the challenge right? Not to get an information advantage each game I suspect? So why not just show what race the random player got? | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
On August 18 2017 05:32 psd wrote: I'm more concern with random being allowed, give free advantage to one player. Random has been allowed since 1998. If it gave a player that much of an advantage, more than 1% of the BW population would play random. | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
On August 18 2017 05:37 EndingLife wrote: Random has been allowed since 1998. If it gave a player that much of an advantage, more than 1% of the BW population would play random. Or they'd be smart enough to realize it's only tolerated because it's a "noob problem." If double Zerg can be banned in pro 2's, I'm sure random can be, too. At least in its current state. Win or lose, it's a horrible experience and waste of time. I'd rather them just give random an auto win, but give them fewer points. I'd gladly insta leave for less loss. | ||
Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
On August 18 2017 04:02 Autumn22 wrote: I strongly oppose this idea and feel it harms the legitimacy of the ladder. 1/3 of the game is mirror matchups, that's what Brood War is. If you'd like a modified game, feel free to setup whatever arbitrary rules/conditions you want in a non-ladder match. But I expect that when I'm playing the official ladder of Brood War that I will be playing the real Brood War, not some awkward ad-hoc system where people can arbitrarily dodge 1/3 of the game. I would be very upset if they bastardized the ladder with this option. It taints the point system, simplifies the game, and would obviously be unworkable with random players (oh hey I'm Terran and have turned off mirrors, I can now infer my random opponent is P or Z. Oh hey I'm random, I wonder if my opponent turned off mirrors and know already ruled out I'm not Terran, who knows!) No no no. Thankfully this will NEVER happen so the discussion is moot. Surely this is a bad troll attempt right? You realise that every single ladder and every single tournament I've watched or played during the entire history of Brood war allowed mu picking right? Allowing players to dodge mirrors has been "what Brood war is". Furthermore, it seems fairly self evident that the majority of players AND spectators find mirror matchups to be less interesting - just take a glance at all of the sponsored afreeca matches, it's quite overwhelming. | ||
.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
Personally, to be a complete player I think you have to be good at playing vs all three races. You can't just be good vs 2/3 of the player population and feel satisfied with being a bw player, i.e. you literally can't play vs 1/3 of the population. Point being obviously you aren't a complete starcraft player if you can't play against all three races. Race picking just seems contrived or a roundabout way to getting there. Why? because of situations where you have 2 race pickers: I mean imagine a situation where 2 zergs play and they both TvZ. They're both really good at TvZ, but both players' ZvT is significantly worse to their TvZ. Ideally they would both want to play TvZ vs one another, and certainly whoever got to TvZ would win their series 90% of the time or something like that. How do we get there? coin-flip for who gets to play the matchup? At the end of the day who is satisfied with the result? Neither I don't think, the one who TvZ'd certainly knows he would've lost ZvT, and the one who ZvT'd certainly knows he would've won had he played TvZ. This type of scenario is why race picking to me doesn't seem as organic as simply playing one race. We haven't encountered this too much in the foreign scene because 1) there was no real 'professional' competition - who would care about losing a clanwar or nationwar game because of the above? 2) in the case of when there were real tournaments, e.g. TSL or WCG, there were basically no race pickers, at least obviously not enough for situations like the above to regularly occur. But more or less the competition just wasn't cutthroat enough for the above situation to really matter. By contrast, in Korea, this certainly was not the case, but hey guess what race picking was banned. Anyway I myself played Z/TvZ back before SC2 came out, but I just don't understand the obsession over race picking in this thread. Personally I don't think it belongs in matchmaking. Why? It's just too contrived and inorganic. I mean you guys are talking about PLAY X RACE BUT ALLOW PEOPLE TO CHOOSE NON MIRROR MATCHUPS. What if I wanna play ZvZ, ZvT but TvP instead? Or what if I want to play ZvT PvZ TvP, should there not be options for that, or should we discriminate solely based on mirror matchups? - that seems like an arbitrary line to draw. What if it's just a system where you choose 3 matchups out of the 9 and queue up. How would the UI look? CHOOSE 3: ZvZ TvZ PvZ ZvT TvT PvT ZvP TvP PvP What if I want to ONLY PLAY vs Terran (I pick ZvT, TvT, PvT) What if I want to play more than 3 matchups? Should there be a requirement that you only play 3 matchups? Should there be a further requirement like you can only pick one from 1 row so that you end up with matchups that can cover all three races? Like I said it's just so contrived, inorganic, and especially alienating to anyone trying to get into SC:R for the first time. It's matchmaking, it's automated, stick to one race friends. Just to add: Like just think about how to implement it from a design perspective, then also think about what kind of rational you're using to discriminate between the different competing systems and think about how you could justify that to the community? Also what about rating issues and shit like that. Anyway people crying about this whole race picking seem to lack perspective. | ||
CHEONSOYUN
493 Posts
| ||
Avi-Love
Denmark423 Posts
| ||
.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
sure there was that one time savior tvz'd gorush but that's an unrelated instance to the kinds of issues I'm talking about. (in that case it was more about the entertainment value of it than anything - they also both agreed to it. actually avi-love that statement just most likely is inaccurate. I'm guessing that, in actuality, the official starleague or proleague rules must've stipulated that both players submit their race beforehand irrespective of what the other player's choice was. Surely a player could not submit something like Z/TvZ, because, again, what if that player's opponent submitted Z/TvZ as well? What system would we use to discriminating who got to play what matchup in cases where both players could not arrive to a consensus on what matchup to play? | ||
playa
United States1284 Posts
If people can accept that I could say I'm a woman, on a whim, then... maybe one day people could accept I want to play Terran vs Zerg. I know it's far out there and like totally 5% complete player and an insult to the game and human decency, but... let a kid dream big. | ||
.gypsy
Canada689 Posts
See if you carefully look at what I'm saying, according to my definition of a 'complete' player, being a complete player is not mutually exclusive with being a race picker. Perhaps 'complete' wasn't the best term to use, considering the many connotations it may have - in this case it might come off as a type of elitism. Perhaps 'competitive' is a better term. But all I meant is that, for a player to be a 'complete' - 'competitive' - starcraft player, they should be capable of playing versus all other players, not just 2/3 of the population. For example, jim tod and bob, my friends, also play starcraft. I play a lot vs jim and tod, but I refuse to play vs bob because I don't like playing X matchup. We're both starcraft players but I will NEVER play bob, EVER, because I just can't/refuse to. Can I consider myself competitive? No because there exists a set of players (in this case bob) that I can never compete against. I argue that there are shortcomings with race picking in a 'professionally competitive' world, or in a world with matchmaking. Race picking is fine man. Anyone can play what they enjoy playing. I have played a ridiculous amount of TvZ, PvZ, and even TvP and PvT. I NEVER play TvT or PvP, because I just don't want to (though I'm sure at some point I might! hehe) | ||
Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
| ||
ortseam
996 Posts
On August 18 2017 07:07 .gypsy wrote: Personally, to be a complete player I think you have to be good at playing vs all three races. You can't just be good vs 2/3 of the player population and feel satisfied with being a bw player, i.e. you literally can't play vs 1/3 of the population. Point being obviously you aren't a complete starcraft player if you can't play against all three races. Race picking just seems contrived or a roundabout way to getting there. Why? because of situations where you have 2 race pickers: I mean imagine a situation where 2 zergs play and they both TvZ. They're both really good at TvZ, but both players' ZvT is significantly worse to their TvZ. Ideally they would both want to play TvZ vs one another, and certainly whoever got to TvZ would win their series 90% of the time or something like that. How do we get there? coin-flip for who gets to play the matchup? At the end of the day who is satisfied with the result? Neither I don't think, the one who TvZ'd certainly knows he would've lost ZvT, and the one who ZvT'd certainly knows he would've won had he played TvZ. 1. No one is discussing not playing against a race, just being able to avoid the mirror. E.g. You will still play against zerg, but play Terran yourself, instead your "main" Z race. Still playing against all 3 races. 2. In the case of two racepickers of the same race , coinflip would be a good solution. Both players won't mind playing either side of the matchup anyway. There won't be that many cases though, and even if there were, players would get each race around 50% of the time making it fair for everyone | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On August 18 2017 05:45 playa wrote: Randoms have to learn way more match ups than you, which is why most random players play cheesily. Play a safe build, scout early, and crush them. If you cant do that you deserved to lose. Same with mirrors. If you want to be a bitch and dodge and leave games, go right ahead. Cry all day and cry all night on these forums, you know what you are, and so do your opponents. Or they'd be smart enough to realize it's only tolerated because it's a "noob problem." If double Zerg can be banned in pro 2's, I'm sure random can be, too. At least in its current state. Win or lose, it's a horrible experience and waste of time. I'd rather them just give random an auto win, but give them fewer points. I'd gladly insta leave for less loss. Coming from someone who hates zvz and has played like 10 games of it in the last seven years. | ||
| ||