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On September 21 2012 02:03 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1. that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings. zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor.
And notice that a majority of the toss army work on the same set of upgrades. One of the main problems with terrans is that can't even really go bio mech in TvP passed the early mid game due to upgrades.
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On September 21 2012 02:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 02:03 rpgalon wrote:On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1. that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings. zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor. And notice that a majority of the toss army work on the same set of upgrades. One of the main problems with terrans is that can't even really go bio mech in TvP passed the early mid game due to upgrades.
Works in TvZ well enough?
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On September 20 2012 13:14 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2012 13:08 S_SienZ wrote: And people are overrating the battle hellion. Regular hellions are better most of the time if you have good micro since they're much faster. LOL, try to roast Chargelots in an actual engagement with Hellions, then with BHs.
You lose either way without the warhound?
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On September 21 2012 02:03 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 01:34 Dephy wrote: i really dont understand wtf is blizzard doing, its an expansion, in which every race should get new exciting units, and only after that comes balance, because i wont buy expansion that is only balance change, that should have been in wol already... Also Battle hellion. Its Additional mode for same unit, it have slightly tweaked stats, that took 5 mins to make. Srsly wow. Widow mine. Baneling without ability to use in main army. Now the compare that to exciting casting unit like viper or even swarm or new toss units and it srsly begs to differ why would terrans even bother with hots, when the others will be playing with new stuff, terran will be building same old boring units(marines, marauders for life bro!). I srsly lol how they add units to other races that wants to be in deathballs(swarm host, viper, tempest). Then add widow mine to terran and say shit like "well we want games to have less death ball". Guess what happens? terran never makes widow mines, because the other two races only a move with deathballs, forcing terran to make a GODDAMN deathball themself.
Also lets do a unit count for terran not including summons(aka mule, infested marine image by sentry and stuff like that). toss Zealot Stalker Sentry High Templar Dark Templar Immortal Colossus Archon Observer Warp Prism Phoenix Void Ray Carrier Mothership Mothership core Tempest Oracle 17units.
Zerg Queen Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Infestor Ultralisk Overlord(this is actually unit, that you can drop with with scout drop creep and stuff) Overseer Mutalisk Corruptor Brood Lord Viper Swarm host. 15units.
Terran. Marine Marauder Reaper Ghost Hellion Siege Tank Thor Viking Medivac Raven Banshee Battlecruiser Battlehelion(this shouldnt even be counted because, then we should count every zerg unit that is burrowed a differnt unit, since they all have differnt stats, also we should count warprism in flying or phase mode as differnt units aswell... differnt stats..but i added this anyway ) Widow mine. 14units.
Terran lowest amount of units, if they dont add new unit/units to terran everyone and there grandmas will be playing zerg and toss.
more units does not mean anything. protoss units are very one-dimensional, while most of terran units have more than one role, marines are like 3-in-1. that is why in the late game protoss composition uses zealot, stalker, sentry, HT, Colossus, archon, observer, warp prism... while terran can use MMM, ghost & vikings. zergs can get the ultimate composition with only 3 units: brood, infestor, corruptor.
They should really focus on the fun aspect a lot more. Broodlord infestor corruptor is the most boring composition ever...
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To answer the title : yes.
I really wish they didn't give Zerg such bad unit sounds in SC2, and a general feeling that I don't like compared to SC:BW, or I would have stayed Zerg. I would have genuinely cheer for people like Stephano, Scarlett, Nerchio, etc.
But... I picked Terran, and stayed true to them during SC2 life. Well, I still can cheer for Thorzain, empire.happy and WTF-Taeja. But... you know, dem patches, dem decisions... meh.
-> Show the basic Terran user some love, god damnit!
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Ah lets see:
countless nerfs constant bashing of everyone who plays T on forums and online in general blizz's ''go fuck yourself if you play Terran trolollloo'' attitude and then this beta that seems quite dull and uninteresting
Yeah I'd say I'm displeased with the beta Probably not shoving 40E to buy the expansion, sorry
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I gave up understanding Blizzard's decisions.
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Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit.
-David Kim
Looks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On September 21 2012 03:44 ragz_gt wrote: I gave up understanding Blizzard's decisions. Why? Can't you see any logic in their decisions? Surely the removal of the warhound makes sense. As does the introduction of the carrier. And even if they're not perfectly tweaked the widow mine and the battlehellion seem pretty good. And most people like the swarmhost and the viper. And the oracle is slowly getting there. And WoL is pretty damn balanced. So why did you give up understanding their decisions? Are they really that incomprehensible that you have stopped even attempting to read and comprehend them? Cause to me they seem to make a lot of sense. Even to an absolute hater, don't they at least have some semblance of reason?
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On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Looks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious.
He also said this:
Our latest thinking on HotS mech:
1. All mech revolving around Siege Tanks makes Terran want to sit back and defend for a very long time. We're not sure what the correct ratio of this sort of play would be against how Terran players play now.
2. Mech revolving around a more all round/slightly mobile didn't work out with the Warhound.
3. Widow Mine being a more useful option is looking to be a really fun add to mech. We really want to focus on making this unit awesome for now and see where it goes.
4. Battle mode Hellions being built as a separate unit feels good for now due to how different this unit is from the hellion. We've been playing around with Battle Hellions that have Biological flag (can be healed my Medivacs), and are seeing more bio + mech cominations.
So overall, we think it'll be good if players in the beta really focus on the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions in the next couple weeks to really figure out their potential.
So it looks like they're really investing in the Widow mine.
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On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious.
Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode.
If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast.
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On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast.
I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is.
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On September 21 2012 01:59 MoonCricket wrote: it might be more interesting to add Firebats back to Barracks/Techlab tech in order to force Mech to utilize both the Barracks for "anti-Zealot" meat shields and the Starport for "anti-air" while giving Bio an "upgrade" as well in the Zerg and Protoss match ups. This isn't optimal because then you'd have to invest in Infantry upgrades as well. People would just end up going pure bio in TvP with Medivac/Viking/Ghost as they do now.
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On September 21 2012 04:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 04:13 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote:Widow mine is a 160 damage unit that instantly 2-4 shots the strongest, latest tier units in the game. Not to mention you can build them two at a time with a 20 sec build time on each. We don't think it'll be a good idea to have these guys be 1 pop especially for the 200/200 supply cases.
We do agree that the Widow Mine is not at an amazing place right now, but we think fixing the unit itself to be good is a priority than just simply lowering the supply cost to 1.
We have more changes for the Widow Mine this week as well so please check them out, and please note one of our top priorities in the up coming weeks is to have the Widow Mine be a really solid unit. -David KimLooks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. Kim makes valid points, since the mines can be reproduced so quickly. Even just three reactored factories, the terran player could make 18 mines a Blizzard-minute. And the unit also requires no actions from the terran player to operate once they are deployed. It makes sense that they don’t want the game be totally focused on mine fields and have 20-30 mines deployed at one time, replacing them as you opponent slowly works through them. We see what problems terran has with removing creep tumors, and those don’t even explode. If they are going to buff the unit in another way, that is totally fine. Making it immune to friendly splash damage wouldn’t be bad at all. Or do more damage to the primary target. Or an armor debuff to all units caught in the blast. I still feel like 2 supply is too much but I'll hold back criticism until I see what the actual buff is.
It could be, but I also want eight mines to be more effective than eight marines. Eight marines can’t take out a colossi, but eight mines could without a second thought. A unit like that is very hard to balance and blizzard would likely have to nerf it to much to make it one supply. A 2 supply mine that is awesome is better than an one supply mine that is little more than a speed bump.
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On September 21 2012 04:06 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 03:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Looks like Widow Mines are getting a buff but it's not supply decrease. Now I'm curious. He also said this: Show nested quote + Our latest thinking on HotS mech:
1. All mech revolving around Siege Tanks makes Terran want to sit back and defend for a very long time. We're not sure what the correct ratio of this sort of play would be against how Terran players play now.
2. Mech revolving around a more all round/slightly mobile didn't work out with the Warhound.
3. Widow Mine being a more useful option is looking to be a really fun add to mech. We really want to focus on making this unit awesome for now and see where it goes.
4. Battle mode Hellions being built as a separate unit feels good for now due to how different this unit is from the hellion. We've been playing around with Battle Hellions that have Biological flag (can be healed my Medivacs), and are seeing more bio + mech cominations.
So overall, we think it'll be good if players in the beta really focus on the Widow Mines and Battle Hellions in the next couple weeks to really figure out their potential.
So it looks like they're really investing in the Widow mine.
Point 4 is hilarious, Battle Hellions aren't just cheaper, better, mass produced Firebats but now they're healable with SCVs and Medivacs on top of that with Blue Flame upgrades ... right ...
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Am i the only one who feels like a buff to the tank would be appropriate. With the addition of the viper, zerg has a better answer to tank heavy play late game. This would allow for a buff to happen which might make tanks more viable in TvP. Then the tank might be able to fulfill the role that the warhound was supposed to have.
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Sup guys zergling and mutalisk obselete in zvt.
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On September 21 2012 04:48 Ordien wrote: Am i the only one who feels like a buff to the tank would be appropriate. With the addition of the viper, zerg has a better answer to tank heavy play late game. This would allow for a buff to happen which might make tanks more viable in TvP. Then the tank might be able to fulfill the role that the warhound was supposed to have. The tank buff would have to be late game then. Just adding an armory upgrade of some sort wouldn't make it late game either, since Terrans can get there pretty quickly. Maybe just have each ground attack upgrade add a lot more damage to tank shots? It would work, but I don't think Blizzard likes such inconsistencies.
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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606902604
Widow Mine Splash damage has increased from 35 to 60.
Wow, that will blast holes into armies. Not sure if I like it.
Also:
Battle Hellion While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit.
Why? The only reason I can think of right now is to stop mass-repair on them, which gets fucked over by the fact that Battle Hellions will now be healable by Medivacs, that's tanky as hell.
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On September 21 2012 07:11 Grapefruit wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606902604Wow, that will blast holes into armies. Not sure if I like it. Also: Show nested quote +Battle Hellion While in Battle mode, the hellion is now classified as a Biological unit. Why? The only reason I can think of right now is to stop mass-repair on them, which gets fucked over by the fact that Battle Hellions will now be healable by Medivacs, that's tanky as hell. No, it is just straight buff. They maybe even let them be mechanical and biological at the same time, because fuck logic. And this isn't a bad thing, encourages making Medivacs when you go for mech, and dropping all over the map. It also supports Battle Hellions in straight up battles, by being able to heal them from behind.
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