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On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Upgrade design in this game is archaic. Overlords use air armor, so as a result drops become a bit weaker as the opponent upgrades his units. Infested terran eggs don't do as much damage once siege tanks get attack upgrades. 3/3 for air is almost never hit, so its existence just serves as a way to overpower air units in certain rare late-game scenarios. Entomb shield becomes weaker every time the enemy upgrades, even though it would make sense to have it be based on shield upgrades. Static defense becomes weaker as the game goes on etc.
More importantly, terran should not have to research six different upgrades just to get a decent mix of bio, thors and vikings for a late-game army. At least some of the upgrades should be shared I feel. For instance, create a plating upgrade for mech/air armor and a missile upgrade for bio and air weapons. Other upgrades remain. This allows easier transitioning into air armies at the very least.
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On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades.
Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker.
The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more.
As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff.
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I agree mech needs some fixing verse protoss, i just hope this doesn't come thought another walking transformer unit. 3 already :/ I still thing battle hellions are a bit lame. i think making window mine one supple would fix my issues witht this unit. limpt drone anyone?
I would also like to see a change to the medivac to make it more useful with mech. Also i like to see changes to make terran late air more viable.
Personally i think they reaper needs some more drastic changes or to be replaced with something new altogether. its a cool concept but doesn't work with the terran tech stucture and current units, it only useful super early game or as a scout and becomes useless after you can do marine drops. would a range upgrade help? maybe a ablitiy? if not, i think they is a lot of scope for a creative new barracks unit that doesn't make the bio ball any stronger.
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On September 17 2012 05:02 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker. The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more. As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff. Terran is favored against zerg in Korea, late game is not so bad that it's beyond redemption. Seeker missile is hard to avoid and gives a really powerful blast that stacks with multiple ravens. It's way stronger in mass than a spell like psi storm. If you have this spell too accessable then what's stopping terran from turtling to raven compositions and winning any late game war of attrition by default? (like ghosts before the snipe nerf)
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On September 17 2012 04:33 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:29 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL? They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty. Would a late game banshee buff be a good first step towards solving terran late game issues? I like Lucifron's use of them, but it seems like they're just slightly too weak for the role he has them perform. Similarly, would a buff to nuke as a late-game ability also not solve a lot of the issues? I find those preferrable to turning the raven into a super unit honestly, especially the banshee has a lot of potential as a unit that can require skill etc.
If you're trying to solve Terran late game issues with the Ghost the clear design restraint is Snipe, because A) it's the single most borring spell design in Starcraft and B) Instantaneous, click spam DPS is inherently retarded by design.
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On September 17 2012 05:42 MoonCricket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 04:33 Grumbels wrote:On September 17 2012 04:29 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 23:59 dynwar7 wrote:Yes to answer your title. Terran does not get good units.. By the way, for those who played the Beta HOTS, was the cloaking ability of ghost changed to toggle only? Or is it still the same as WoL? They left it alone thank god. You can still do late game nuke harrass just like in wings of liberty. Would a late game banshee buff be a good first step towards solving terran late game issues? I like Lucifron's use of them, but it seems like they're just slightly too weak for the role he has them perform. Similarly, would a buff to nuke as a late-game ability also not solve a lot of the issues? I find those preferrable to turning the raven into a super unit honestly, especially the banshee has a lot of potential as a unit that can require skill etc. If you're trying to solve Terran late game issues with the Ghost the clear design restraint is Snipe, because A) it's the single most borring spell design in Starcraft and B) Instantaneous, click spam DPS is inherently retarded by design. Not really, since snipe is so weak already. It's not intrusive anymore, which is not to say I like the ability.
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As a Terran I am a bit worried for HotS. In WOL I feel like Terran is strong in the early and midgame, but weak in the lategame. But in the current HotS beta build, all the "new stuff" is either in the early or mid game. Reapers, Hellions, Widow Mines -- all good for openings and timing attacks, but they aren't units that you want in most lategame army compositions.
Balance that with the fact that with the exception of the Mothership Core, Protoss and Zerg early-mid game is not going to change much...and I can see Terran becoming even more of a timing attack/allin race. Which I'm not that thrilled about.
Something needs to be done for lategame Terran. Ghost/Thor/Raven/BC need a good look.
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I don't think Terran needs the warhound. I think they need increased tank damage.
With the Viper, tanks in ZvT become much less scary.. And in PvZ, before the old damage nerf to tanks, tanks were performing well there. Now with battle hellions, revert the tank nerf and factor in widow mines.. What more does Terran need for mech in TvP? For the current metagame, nothing I can see.
The warhound was a clumsy, uninspired unit.
But perhaps blizzard wants to be creative, and justify having an expansion, with a new unit. By all means fire away, but please make the unit interesting.
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On September 17 2012 06:23 osiris17 wrote: I don't think Terran needs the warhound. I think they need increased tank damage.
With the Viper, tanks in ZvT become much less scary.. And in PvZ, before the old damage nerf to tanks, tanks were performing well there. Now with battle hellions, revert the tank nerf and factor in widow mines.. What more does Terran need for mech in TvP? For the current metagame, nothing I can see.
The warhound was a clumsy, uninspired unit.
But perhaps blizzard wants to be creative, and justify having an expansion, with a new unit. By all means fire away, but please make the unit interesting.
doesnt blink stalker and warpgates still rape the living daylights out of mech?
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Nope. Blink stalker timings can be hit vs mech, but they rely on the Terran not playing well. Immortal-chargelot-colossi is about the only scary thing for mech, imo.
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Why does the siege tank need so many units designed to counter it? It's not even that scary in its current form. It was nerfed so many times in WoL beta that by the time all the balance changes came full circle, siege tanks felt a bit fragile and weak. I'm thinking maybe +10 damage to all units across the board and/or a supply reduction to 2 along with widow mines dropping to 1 supply.
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I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground.
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On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground.
So you have 17K posts which means you've probably at least been around since the beta, and you can't figure out why that doesn't work?
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On September 16 2012 03:13 Sabu113 wrote: I don't understand how you all continually bitch about the historically most dominant race in SC2.
The game approaches a state of balance finally and you're all complaining because you can't get the easy wins with blanket emps, silly 1/1/1s or a pack of ghosts.
Now the lot of you are whining about the warhound's removal which if you're not blind (re:IEM post) was obviously necessary.
Now what lategame are you looking for? And be fair, it has to make sense in an RTS as offering a trade off and be combatable by the other races. Nixing some health of the thors and strike cannon in exchange for no energy? 1 Yamato max BCs? [Still don't understand why you can't throw some emps on there if you can make the transition] I understand that in the lategame powerunits of the other races are dealing decently with your MMM balls... yes that's finally when those armies /can/ effectively deal with those very mobile, high dps stim balls.
Jesus. It's like you guys have this angst because the race never suffered from being too weak competitively.
The vast majority of posts in this thread that mention the warhound say that they're glad that it's gone. I think there's like, one person who said otherwise. This thread isn't just "terrans qq about no warhound," even the OP says that the only good thing about the warhound is that it's gone. And even if Terran is (at least) very viable at the top level with good control, a lot of players can't split or multitask like crazy, so things like fungals/banelings/storms/colossi pose a greater problem for those players than it does for competitive players.
On topic, I random now, but for a good while Terran was my main race. I think I will initially enjoy playing around with the new Terran units and trying to make them work. I also think they'll be fun for messing around in team games and when playing with friends and stuff. However, competitively in 1v1 at the moment I'm not sure how it will work. I can't say for sure till I've tried it and (more importantly) people who understand and are just flat out better than me at the game have more time to try to make things work. However, my marine splitting/micro/control is absolutely terrible. I mech in TvT/TvZ as it is now, and will enjoy trying it in TvP. If it's not viable, though, I may just stop randoming and switch to Toss or Zerg, because it's increasingly frustrating trying to play TvP and losing nearly 100% of the time it goes to the lategame. But to be fair, I don't think that Blizzard has an obligation to make bio AND mech viable for ALL matchups.
I am trying to stay optimistic about everything, though, and am hoping that after all is said and done, HotS will end up fun and refreshing, but with elements of the same gameplay we enjoy now
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On September 17 2012 07:02 architecture wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground. So you have 17K posts which means you've probably at least been around since the beta, and you can't figure out why that doesn't work? That's right...
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On September 17 2012 08:20 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 07:02 architecture wrote:On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground. So you have 17K posts which means you've probably at least been around since the beta, and you can't figure out why that doesn't work? That's right... build slower (individual build time) takes more gas needs more production facilities (reactor vikings vs tech lab banshees) feedback...
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You can march your tanks too easily across the map in the current state of the games, therefore blizz can't buff tanks. Protoss used to have an early game advantage, this forces Terran to sit in their base and defend with powerful siege tanks. Terran can harass with spider mines while defending.
I believe tanks should be buffed though, this will encourage more splitting. The whole balance should be done around buffed tanks. Just go ahead and make the siege tanks scarier, then balance around it.
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On September 16 2012 14:18 Asymptote1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:00 Bombadil819 wrote:On September 16 2012 00:44 Psychobabas wrote:
Putting balance aside, they just have to add something, purely from a marketing perspective. Not everybody browse teamliquid or are as hardcore players as most of the people here. The casual terran players wouldn't buy an expansion for a mine and a hp buff on the hellion. Actual casual players will buy it for the campaign. Just throwing that out there. I bought WoL because I loved RoC/FT, and trusted that Blizzard would have a fun campaign. Agreed, terran players gotta stop complaining, they already got over 1 whole year of complete tournament dominance until Blizzard forced it to change, its time for a BETTER game, which means the other races need their actual options.
That's bullshit, and everyone knows it whether they want to admit it or not. Terran were never even close to "complete dominance," certainly not internationally. There was a period of time where terrans were doing extremely well specifically in Code S. That small window of time has somehow warped everyone's perception of the history of the game.
On September 17 2012 06:58 Shikyo wrote: I wonder why people don't do Banshee/mech against Protoss. They even kill Colossus faster than Vikings and decimate anything Protoss has on ground.
it works until the protoss player makes 1-2 stargates and churns out a few rounds of phoenix. I was basically doing only air with mech support for hundreds of games in diamond league. It's a gimmicky build that relies too much on being able to do early damage (and this early damage got completely shut down by the -10 second build time buff on observers) and taking hidden expansions for extra gas geysers. It won't work on players who have encountered an air based build before.
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On September 17 2012 06:47 althaz wrote: Nope. Blink stalker timings can be hit vs mech, but they rely on the Terran not playing well. Immortal-chargelot-colossi is about the only scary thing for mech, imo.
its not a timing... you push out -> they blink in and kill your factories
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