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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On September 17 2012 09:17 Zaurus wrote: You can march your tanks too easily across the map in the current state of the games, therefore blizz can't buff tanks. Protoss used to have an early game advantage, this forces Terran to sit in their base and defend with powerful siege tanks. Terran can harass with spider mines while defending.
I believe tanks should be buffed though, this will encourage more splitting. The whole balance should be done around buffed tanks. Just go ahead and make the siege tanks scarier, then balance around it.
Now I don't want to say that you're an idiot, but you're completely wrong. I play mech in WoL in all matchups and it's impossible to do anything but leapfrog tanks if you're against an opponent who isn't a moron.
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I dont even mind that the warhound is gone.. I was really excited for skyterran to be a new thing to try out with the raven and bc changes... but not to be i guess
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On September 15 2012 21:59 Grapefruit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 21:41 Sogetsu wrote: The BattleCruiser DPS was INSANE, seriously people. And the Raven could be called "OP" (And I am Terran)
Anyways let's wait, maybe they can re-work the WarHound to fit in the game I think it's totally fine for a tier 4 unit that costs 400/300, takes 6 supply and 1,5 minutes to build to do some really serious damage.
Carrier costs more.. takes 2 mins to build.. and is still not used. For some reason it was brought back. But it still won't be used.
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On September 17 2012 10:17 dragonblade369 wrote: Carrier costs more.. takes 2 mins to build.. and is still not used. For some reason it was brought back. But it still won't be used.
If mech becomes an option in TvP, it will be. Terran and Protoss should work together so that Terran gets a new mech unit (or some other way to make mech viable in the MU), and Protoss gets to keep the Carrier.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 17 2012 10:25 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 10:17 dragonblade369 wrote: Carrier costs more.. takes 2 mins to build.. and is still not used. For some reason it was brought back. But it still won't be used. If mech becomes an option in TvP, it will be. Terran and Protoss should work together so that Terran gets a new mech unit (or some other way to make mech viable in the MU), and Protoss gets to keep the Carrier.
I agree. I think the main problem here is that terran needs a better way to counter later game protoss compositions like immortal/archon/colossus and that protoss needs to have a stepping stone into carriers (or at least have carriers take less time to build, SOMETHING).
Terran will probably do better against early protoss compositions now with the battlehellion, but I think that the biggest problem for terran is that the 2 most important mech units, banshees and thors, are completely vulnerable to feedback, and battlehellion/tank just doesn't do enough sheer DPS to deal with archons and stalkers and immortals. As it is, strike cannons really needs to be a cooldown ability and not cost energy; this will make thors reliable in TvP as well as give them the role of "immortal snipers" (Strike Cannons kill immortals in one hit).
As for protoss, they just don't have a good way to step into carriers safely. There's too much of a chance that at any point in time they can be overrun if they don't keep investing money into gateway units and supply into robo units. I'm HOPING that the tempest allows protoss a more stable way to defend in order to get up carriers. However, I think in order to fulfill this task, it needs some tweaking to give it more DPS, lower cost, and quicker build time. In a sense, it should really be on a tier with the void ray as a "midgame" unit, not with the carrier as a "lategame seige" unit. I think the key thing to note here is that protoss just doesn't have a stable way to defend at t3, unlike terran with tanks/PFs and zerg with spines/infestors (and everything else they got in HotS lol).
I think if we push these 2 things and bring them to attention, Blizzard can help us by creating a better game for every race.
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On September 15 2012 21:27 Herect wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 20:49 Grapefruit wrote: I don't know, to be honest since the start of the Beta my interest in SC2 has dropped really hard and basically hit the bottom yesterday, when they announced that they are going to change to HSM to 125 energy again.
Really, it just adds up:
>First the Warhound, which was obvious bullshit (and I really wonder what Blizzard has been doing for the past couple of months to release it like that). Only good thing about it is that it's gone. Even if it was a very good unit it was the epitome of boring skill-less play.
>Then the whole BC issue. First it gets that Speed Buff spell, which is re-moved quite quickly in favor of increased damage vs. ground units. Now however the increased damage is a "bug" and got fixed. What the fuck?
>Ghost cloak is also pretty fucked up thanks to the cool-down and makes nukeing a lot harder and riskier. I would understand it if there was a serious issue with nukeing in HotS and they had to fix this later on, but rolling out a straight up nerf in an expansion?
>The Widow Mine could technically be a nice unit but 2 supply is just way to much. The thing here is that Terran doesn't really need any more cost effective units, Bio + Medivac heal is wonderful in that regard, Terran needs supply effective units to deal with Zerg and Protoss lategame.
>The Battle Hellion is okay, I guess, but just not a very interesting unit.
>The only really cool thing is the Reaper, which has gotten really little attention since the nerf back at the beginning of WoL. It's a great opening harass and early map-control unit, not doubt. My problem with it though is that I don't think Terran really needs more stuff for the early and mid-game. We need late-game units.
>Last but not least, the Raven. I was so fucking hyped when I saw that it got a speed buff and that HSM only cost 100 energy. That alone made HotS interesting for me. Well, as it turns out it was just a "bug" (I'd really like to know what Blizzards definition of a bug is, since the spell never did cost 100 energy, so someone MUST have changed it but whatever...).
All in all I'm just utterly disappointed. I hope the "new" Warhound or whatever they are going to give us instead will be REALLY cool. The Widow Mine is hard to use. You can't expect to master it in a few days. It is different form the Spider Mine, you can't spam in all over the map and hope it works. It has to be well placed, well Microed (proper target and please turnoff auto-attack) and often you'lol have to realocate and unburrow to save them.
yes that is exactely what mech needs, another uber immobile hard to micro very expensive high food consuming "tankshot" that can be avoided with micro and completely shut done by detection
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On September 17 2012 05:29 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 05:02 avilo wrote:On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker. The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more. As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff. Terran is favored against zerg in Korea, late game is not so bad that it's beyond redemption. Seeker missile is hard to avoid and gives a really powerful blast that stacks with multiple ravens. It's way stronger in mass than a spell like psi storm. If you have this spell too accessable then what's stopping terran from turtling to raven compositions and winning any late game war of attrition by default? (like ghosts before the snipe nerf)
Because when a Terran establishes a split map position with massive infrastructure to defend against tech switches/counter attacks, he pretty much outplayed you the entire game. That's the only time when Ravens really become useful, outside of very specific niche situations where the Z totally overreacts or just reacts badly to a Raven based composition.
People keep acting like making Ravens viable is going to make TvZ stupid or something. Hello people, the Sci Vessel was like 100x more useful and more overpowered than the Raven, with virtually no counter except Scourge (which were marginally good at countering good Sci Vessel + M&M control at best). And TvZ was PERFECTLY fine in BW. I see no reason why Ravens shouldn't be viable in the midgame against Z at all.
Blizzard honestly just needs to get off their damn high horse and just buff the Tank and make it useful in TvP again. The bigger maps means Terran players can't Siege a Z fast anyways, and Bio/Tank compositions barely work when attacking against a good Z player now adays.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 17 2012 12:20 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 05:29 Grumbels wrote:On September 17 2012 05:02 avilo wrote:On September 17 2012 04:48 SolidMoose wrote: Mech isn't really the issue. The issue is having a much more solid lategame, which was going to be solved by mech. I feel like they want Terran to throw in battle hellions with bio, but it's going to have setbacks with splitting upgrades. Lategame is not solved by mech, it's solved my raven usage. The only problem is ravens are a lot less forgiving than spewing out broodlord/corruptor/infestor + 50 zerglings/ultras. Mostly because of a 125 energy seeker. The 100 energy seeker made lategame just as forgiving for Terran as it is for Zerg right now...aka it balanced it more. As of right now, lategame TvZ in HOTS is utterly bad, just like in wings of liberty. They should implement the raven buff. Terran is favored against zerg in Korea, late game is not so bad that it's beyond redemption. Seeker missile is hard to avoid and gives a really powerful blast that stacks with multiple ravens. It's way stronger in mass than a spell like psi storm. If you have this spell too accessable then what's stopping terran from turtling to raven compositions and winning any late game war of attrition by default? (like ghosts before the snipe nerf) Because when a Terran establishes a split map position with massive infrastructure to defend against tech switches/counter attacks, he pretty much outplayed you the entire game. That's the only time when Ravens really become useful, outside of very specific niche situations where the Z totally overreacts or just reacts badly to a Raven based composition. People keep acting like making Ravens viable is going to make TvZ stupid or something. Hello people, the Sci Vessel was like 100x more useful and more overpowered than the Raven, with virtually no counter except Scourge (which were marginally good at countering good Sci Vessel + M&M control at best). And TvZ was PERFECTLY fine in BW. I see no reason why Ravens shouldn't be viable in the midgame against Z at all.
Transitions require a stable defense. Ravens will never be viable in midgame because there's no way to stably get up 3 starports and get all FIVE raven upgrades and wait for them to amass energy. Plus they cost a shitton of gas, you need like at least 6 geysers. I think this is probably of little importance to this discussion, I just wanted to point that out. (Also, there was the plague + 1 muta counter to science vessels :D)
To actually add to the discussion about raven being too little or too much in the lategame, I think it's probable that we'll start to see more positional micro and the fact that seeker missile wins battles well won't matter. With the introduction of the Swarm Host, I believe that TvZ will become much more positionally focused like TvT and BW. This means that the "engagement balance" will not matter as much because winning one battle won't win you the game as it currently does now. Everything, in time, will come to be spread out much more. That being said, Ravens are actually fine as they are now. They can engage BLords with a good chance of winning and zerg now has the ability to prevent or slow down a counterpush if their attack goes badly.
Blizzard honestly just needs to get off their damn high horse and just buff the Tank and make it useful in TvP again. The bigger maps means Terran players can't Siege a Z fast anyways, and Bio/Tank compositions barely work when attacking against a good Z player now adays.
Watch Bomber if you don't think marine/tank works in modern TvZ.
As for the tank's role in TvP...I think it's become primarily to kill stalkers/sentries/colossus. I truly believe the reason why mech isn't viable in TvP is the fact that thor is completely useless. If Blizzard were to make thors viable in TvP, mech would be definitely be viable. Unlike BW, SC2 mech has most of its damage output in thors, not tanks; this is evident in TvZ and, to some extent, in lategame TvT. The tank doesn't need a buff, thors need more versatility.
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They shoud make reaper like this..
Characteristics of the reaper:
- Cannot be added to the deathball. - Its a scout and harass oriented unit. - Requires lots of micro.
The change i propose is:
Stats - Same stats as before - 200 energy - 2 supply ( so it wont be massed )
Abilities:
Throw charge 3 seconds deployment, usable on buildings( works as a static widow mine that cannot move. The widow mine would be removed )
*If used on buildings its a instant cast that deals 100 damage
Energy cost: 50
Research on techlab: 50/50 130 seconds ( Enough time to get detection for every race because of my second ability)
Widow mine stats: 100 damage 20 aoe. ( low aoe)
Cloaking field: Gives cloack for 5 seconds ( dispells on atack but not on deploying mine )
Cost: 75 energy
Passive regen: Regens when out of combat as it is now.
Points to think about.
- The reaper can be included in mech because 3 reaper can deploy a total of 3 mines every 50 seconds for a total cost of 200/200 and still have harass and strong scouting abilities all game long, providing good area control.
- A unit that complements mech as a caster, that doesn't build from factory nor is too expensive.
-A terran will have to think twice before including mines in bio because it will delay stim tech by 130 seconds, so bio wont have such strong defensive capabilities and alot of offensive at same time.
-The reaper wont be in the army because they will be too valuable, they will always be deploying mines, scouting, or harassing workers.
- Fufills the role of map awareness that the terran so much need, but doesn't give map control, only board control.
Assuming a full energy reaper
Possible combos:
-Cloack for 75 energy drop a mine for 50 energy atack workers for a few seconds and cloack out of there.
-Cloack, drop a few mines on the ramp harass main and leave.
-Full base scout for 75 energy if there are no investments in detection.
-Map awareness for 75 energy.
- etc etc.
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On September 15 2012 22:21 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 22:08 kade wrote: i haven't seriously played sc2 since the beta, can someone fill me in as to what makes mech not viable? Immortals + Chargelots + Blinkstalkers. It would be interesting to see if it gets better if you remove one of the tree but atm thats not really realistic. its that plus the fact that bio MMM is better, faster, safer and overall crushes any mech strategy. Mech should bring to the table the ultimate killing machine in terms of unit composition. Right now in WOL it isnt that and in HotS the battle helion alone makes it much much better
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What do terrans consistently have a huge problem with? Lategame. What did blizzard not address at all? Lategame. They need to buff the raven, significantly. The fact that no one used it until post Queen buff speaks volumes about its shittyness. Instead of doing anything meaningful, Blizzard throws in an a-move roflstomp unit and then takes it out (Wow! Amazing blizzard! Spot on!). They better put in a good unit and they better fix the fucking lategame.
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On September 17 2012 12:54 Lesrah wrote: They shoud make reaper like this..
Characteristics of the reaper:
- Cannot be added to the deathball. - Its a scout and harass oriented unit. - Requires lots of micro.
The change i propose is:
Stats - Same stats as before - 200 energy - 2 supply ( so it wont be massed )
Abilities:
Throw charge 3 seconds deployment, usable on buildings( works as a static widow mine that cannot move. The widow mine would be removed )
*If used on buildings its a instant cast that deals 100 damage
Energy cost: 50
Research on techlab: 50/50 130 seconds ( Enough time to get detection for every race because of my second ability)
Widow mine stats: 100 damage 20 aoe. ( low aoe)
Cloaking field: Gives cloack for 5 seconds ( dispells on atack but not on deploying mine )
Cost: 75 energy
Passive regen: Regens when out of combat as it is now.
Points to think about.
- The reaper can be included in mech because 3 reaper can deploy a total of 3 mines every 50 seconds for a total cost of 200/200 and still have harass and strong scouting abilities all game long, providing good area control.
- A unit that complements mech as a caster, that doesn't build from factory nor is too expensive.
-A terran will have to think twice before including mines in bio because it will delay stim tech by 130 seconds, so bio wont have such strong defensive capabilities and alot of offensive at same time.
-The reaper wont be in the army because they will be too valuable, they will always be deploying mines, scouting, or harassing workers.
- Fufills the role of map awareness that the terran so much need, but doesn't give map control, only board control.
Assuming a full energy reaper
Possible combos:
-Cloack for 75 energy drop a mine for 50 energy atack workers for a few seconds and cloack out of there.
-Cloack, drop a few mines on the ramp harass main and leave.
-Full base scout for 75 energy if there are no investments in detection.
-Map awareness for 75 energy.
- etc etc.
So it's like a vulture? New reaper is fine but Zerg and Protoss tears will undoubtedly get it nerfed at some point.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 17 2012 13:51 Inquisitor1323 wrote: What do terrans consistently have a huge problem with? Lategame. What did blizzard not address at all? Lategame. They need to buff the raven, significantly. The fact that no one used it until post Queen buff speaks volumes about its shittyness. Instead of doing anything meaningful, Blizzard throws in an a-move roflstomp unit and then takes it out (Wow! Amazing blizzard! Spot on!). They better put in a good unit and they better fix the fucking lategame.
I think terran has had a difficult lategame until the latest patch for zerg. From the onset of that patch, we've seen terran lategame evolve at an alarming rate in TvZ and, in Korea, terran is actually favoured in the matchup lategame now. I don't think terran needs any help with the lategame in TvZ. As for the raven, it's quite a strong unit already Before the queen buff, terrans were either winning or losing earlier in the matchup; the fact that the lategame has been opened up to terran and terrans have figured out how to transition into raven safely is a good thing.
TvP...well, that might be another issue considering that terran is still doing the same thing at 30:00 that they were doing at 16:00, expanding and making MMM/G. In my opinion, all of this can get fixed if Blizzard opens up the mech path in this matchup. Until then we're just going to see lots of bioball versus colossus deathball battles that end with both sides equally dead.
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Reading some of this thread it seems like people have just forgotten two things: - Thor on a cooldown with no energy bar has been tried...and was reverted. It flat out murdered Protoss because there was just so little Protoss can do to them. That said, theoretically Tempests could work; but you'd have literally no way to delay an attack coming and we don't have scans to check army composition.
- Loads of people seem to forget Vikings exist. I see a lot of people saying "hey, make mech viable and Protoss can go Carriers!" Even if you go mech you can (probably should, for vision) get some Vikings. And Vikings either counter or trade well with around half of the Protoss arsenal. Protoss has 15 units WoL. One of them is the Probe, so its 14 units actually used in a Protoss army. Theres five gateway units (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, HT and DT), plus the Archon, plus Immortals. Everything else is air or can be hit with air. That means half of the Protoss army units can be hit by Viking primary attacks and its only going to get worse with HotS thanks to the Tempest (air), Oracle (air) and Mothership Core (air). As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable.
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its funny for terrans to be disappointed when protoss was a joke untill the recent patch. Don't worry terran players seeing that protosses heart of the swarm jokes are being addressed im sure they will do something about terran units.
Although i honestly feel that the widow mine isn't really a good unit i mean all i can think of is terran getting a gimpier baneling that has to burrow to detonate.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On September 17 2012 19:41 Lightspeaker wrote: Reading some of this thread it seems like people have just forgotten two things: - Thor on a cooldown with no energy bar has been tried...and was reverted. It flat out murdered Protoss because there was just so little Protoss can do to them. That said, theoretically Tempests could work; but you'd have literally no way to delay an attack coming and we don't have scans to check army composition.
- Loads of people seem to forget Vikings exist. I see a lot of people saying "hey, make mech viable and Protoss can go Carriers!" Even if you go mech you can (probably should, for vision) get some Vikings. And Vikings either counter or trade well with around half of the Protoss arsenal. Protoss has 15 units WoL. One of them is the Probe, so its 14 units actually used in a Protoss army. Theres five gateway units (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, HT and DT), plus the Archon, plus Immortals. Everything else is air or can be hit with air. That means half of the Protoss army units can be hit by Viking primary attacks and its only going to get worse with HotS thanks to the Tempest (air), Oracle (air) and Mothership Core (air). As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable.
Hate to tell you this, but Pheonix's and Carriers actually do awesomer against Vikings, well with good micro from Pheonix's and if you add carrier micro back into the game.
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Won't be buying into this crap anymore. blizzard really has to do something fundamentally to terran lategame or they will loose me as customer.
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I play Terran as well as Protoss, and I'll be happy if they just return BC and raven buffs, probably decrease widow mine supply. All the rest is great as is.
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playing terran in beta right now is so underwhelming. Im basically doing the same strats from wings in this beta, because i dont know whats actually different for terran.... Dont even feel like playing beta quite honestly. These bad maps ugh
so we paying $60 for some spidermines that are gimmicky and reaper laming in tvt?
i'll pass for now. Terran needs improvements.
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On September 17 2012 21:09 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 19:41 Lightspeaker wrote: Reading some of this thread it seems like people have just forgotten two things: - Thor on a cooldown with no energy bar has been tried...and was reverted. It flat out murdered Protoss because there was just so little Protoss can do to them. That said, theoretically Tempests could work; but you'd have literally no way to delay an attack coming and we don't have scans to check army composition.
- Loads of people seem to forget Vikings exist. I see a lot of people saying "hey, make mech viable and Protoss can go Carriers!" Even if you go mech you can (probably should, for vision) get some Vikings. And Vikings either counter or trade well with around half of the Protoss arsenal. Protoss has 15 units WoL. One of them is the Probe, so its 14 units actually used in a Protoss army. Theres five gateway units (Zealot, Stalker, Sentry, HT and DT), plus the Archon, plus Immortals. Everything else is air or can be hit with air. That means half of the Protoss army units can be hit by Viking primary attacks and its only going to get worse with HotS thanks to the Tempest (air), Oracle (air) and Mothership Core (air). As long as Vikings are so effective against so much Protoss stuff and can be built so quickly (thanks to reactors) then Protoss air play just isn't going to be viable. Hate to tell you this, but Pheonix's and Carriers actually do awesomer against Vikings, well with good micro from Pheonix's and if you add carrier micro back into the game.
...I sincerely hope you're joking here. Either that or you don't play Protoss.
In case you're not: Hate to tell you this, but Vikings outrange Phoenix by fully 50% even with the range upgrade (and more than double the range without it). You can't dance them like you can vs Mutalisks. So what "Phoenix micro" are you talking about?
And Carriers are almost a full 1 speed slower than Vikings with 1 less range to launch fighters than Vikings do to attack so again...you can't micro them against Vikings unless the Vikings are on hold position or something (fighters launch at 8 and stay launched until 14, but you can't get away from the Vikings because they're faster and so stay in range).
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