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On October 19 2012 12:17 SaSe wrote:Guess post was too long, guess some of you didn't read everything. I said 1 maybe 2 changes for infestors would be enough. I said remove pheonix and mothership and fix the obviously bugged things. Delay on pylon would make 2-3 base attacks alot weaker and make it more likely to go into macro game. 10 seconds might not seem long but it means alot when doing allins. Some of these changes would be a good start to move the game into the right direction. The reason why so many toss players allins vs zerg is just because the lategame is so horrible. Some changes are needed I am sure even Nerchio would agree on. Should make them changes and take it from there. Also sorry for not posting in a blog. I think that was my first post on TL ever. Even though I read alot here Listen I apologize for being so blunt but it's just really poor timing. Post this 1 month ago or 1 month into the future and its fine but there are 5 threads up about this sort of thing or something similar and it's just a really poorly timed post.
Your ideas weren't batshit crazy, infestor size is a big issue imo causing EMP especially to be shitty (although it makes feedbacking easier so I don't see the help PvT) . The 10 second delay is an issue because of the opposite effect, if you're being rushed and you have to wait 10 seconds you're fucked so that was poorly planned out, a better solution would be to perhaps implement that and then increase the buildtime at a normal gateway by 10 seconds such that you can have multiple gateway/warpgates working, some for defense and others for offense to offset. The biggest flaw imo is the fact protoss can't use gateways to que, I don't see why they can't warp in quicker after say the cyber core gives it an upgrade (likek WG). If you make it quicker the only thing affected is 2gate rush but if you wait for core + WG upgradfe that's a non issue and only adds dynamic with PRotoss having to handle transitioning from wg to gw
Anywho like I said, this was just bad timing on your part, the post wasn't awful by any means although maybe not perfect it just hit when everyone is so depressed on this forum and bitching about everything left and right.
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On October 19 2012 12:14 goswser wrote: You're about as objective as Avilo. You're absolutely the right person to comment on that, now are you? I like what your ideas are, also people should realize you're not suggesting to pull through ALL the changes, rather pick a few and see what happens. Thank you for this, lets hope it gets through to blizzard.
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consider yourself lucky you never played BW.
you would have killed yourself following the very specific building rules concerning walls, or forcing yourself to scout with a corsair every game.
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On October 19 2012 11:56 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful.
Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt.
I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games. Life disagrees. And he makes top tier terrans look extremely silly with his disagreement. Life doesn't disagree. He thinks that Protoss is really overpowered...
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On October 19 2012 12:24 Gamegene wrote: consider yourself lucky you never played BW.
you would have killed yourself following the very specific building rules concerning walls, or forcing yourself to scout with a corsair every game. lol.. and to think the AI is smarter in sc2 and yet he has trouble when the old guards overcame it. I say suck it up and improve yourself instead of whining. Everyone plays with disadvantages in this game, zerg early and mid game, terran's late game, toss early game late game.
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On October 19 2012 11:47 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:45 NeMeSiS3 wrote: Lol. You know what I like? Going onto the SC2 general and seeing "my opinion" from 3 pros and Slayers disbanding... shouldn't all of these be blogs? Do they get random permission to post opinions on the main forum because of there status so it eventually gets spammed?
It's getting really tiring seeing "here's my opinion, I play the game you should care, let me post it where you all see it" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376308He has an OPINION
:D GET HIM AGAIN WAX
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On October 19 2012 12:21 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous. Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins. Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...)
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On October 19 2012 12:26 Doubting wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:21 ZAiNs wrote:On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous. Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins. Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...) And cloud kingdom. Never forget cloud kingdom.. I swear that choke at the natural is just saying DO IT
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He brings up some good points about some problems in PvZ, particularly about how early pools in PvZ can be incredibly powerful vs FFE and generally end up with Z not even being behind after. I feel like this is a problem as well, I'm not really sure how you'd address this however without fucking with other mu's too much. :/
Faster toss scouting as he brought up - really does need to be implemented. This is a problem in all mu's for protoss in my opinion, not just PvZ. I think Blizzards idea for HOTS to give sentrys hallucination without an upgrade could potentially remedy this problem to a degree. Hopefully this works out and allows us a faster scout without compromising safety too much.. Not sure if Sase has kept up with HOTS patch notes completely, but if you read this - maybe there is hope for earlyish game scout?
Good comments about infestor burrowing needing fixing. I feel like small changes like this could help tweak PvZ in the direction it needs to go.
Hopefully blizzard does read this and considers a few of your opinions for future changes..
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On October 19 2012 12:21 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:19 eleaf wrote: The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool. Ever look at brood war? Defilers were one of the most powerful units in the game. Science vessels were so good against zerg, and templars/arbiters were insanely strong.
Except Defilers and SV are tier-3 late game units and you never want to make half of your units in this kind of supportive unit. How ironically Blizzard always saying we dont want ppl to overmake one kind of unit and we see broodlord+infestors every game no matter tvz pvz or zvz.
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On October 19 2012 12:21 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous. Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins.
I watched WCS Asia last weekend, does that count?
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Honestly anyone who is good at this game and understands it is going to agree with almost everything SaSe has stated, as it turns out most of the community is complete garbage and understands nothing about this game except how to cheese and all in so I expect a lot of negative feedback. It's pretty sickening to see certain Zergs who train much less than others simply destroy other Protoss who train almost all day (I wont mention names) because they are more "skilled".
Protoss are winning against Zerg right now at a decent rate because of our two clutch all ins we rely on so heavily in the match up, Sentry Immortal and 3 Base Colossus 12 Gate. I dare you to try and find a good macro game where a Protoss outplays and wins against Zerg in late game versus all the things SaSe has stated is to powerful (One where the Zerg doesn't donate the win). People seem to think Protoss do these all ins and timings because they are easy wins, this far from the truth, Protoss players do these types of builds because they feel like its one of the few ways they can logistically play better against a Zerg and win because of it as opposed to the late game where the match hinges on the Zerg messing up.
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On October 19 2012 12:29 eleaf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:21 goswser wrote:On October 19 2012 12:19 eleaf wrote: The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool. Ever look at brood war? Defilers were one of the most powerful units in the game. Science vessels were so good against zerg, and templars/arbiters were insanely strong. Except Defilers and SV are tier-3 late game units and you never want to make half of your units in this kind of supportive unit. How ironically Blizzard always saying we dont want ppl to overmake one kind of unit and we see broodlord+infestors every game no matter tvz pvz or zvz. same can be said for toss and terran. Marines and Stalkers, no matter what match up. Btw broodlord and infestors is not one unit, you know that right?
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I watched a game on your steam, where it was a p v z. You were maxed on a heavy stalker composition. Your opponent was very heavy on mutas, if not a pure muta composition. You ended up losing the game, despite the zerg having 0 spines, banelings or anything that wasn't muta... I think you made a comment like "It's fun to play when mutas are the counter to stalkers." That's what it looked like... Personally, due to style, I never cared much about the infestor. I hear it's good... so I give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm curious to your thoughts on p vs mutas and if anything should be changed. Perhaps it's merely a style thing and you should be opening phoenix. I have no idea but I find it pretty unfair, whether it is or not.
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On October 19 2012 12:26 Doubting wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:21 ZAiNs wrote:On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous. Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins. Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...) "As long as the maps are done well,I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG
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Although I think this should have gone on the HOTS forum, I think it's good for the community to know pro-gamers' thoughts and opinions on balance. Of course, the game developers should know about this too but having a pro-active community (not a hyper-active one though) is good for the game and a sign that people actually care for the game.
Anyway, I think that although people agreed that BW was balanced, I recall people still complained about certain aspects of the game. Either way, I think players should give HOTS a chance but still, suggestions on balance like these are important during the beta phases of the game so that on release, we get a great game from the get-go.
Where are these pro forums by the way? I want to read their thoughts on balance. Still, I kind of support Blizzard in their idea that there should be imbalances at different points of a set meaning that Toss should be strong against Z mid-game while Z should be rewarded for surviving until late-game. My main complaint is that Blizzard should find a way to include units that will require more multi-tasking at ALL POINTS of the game as well as provide different tech paths. What I really hate is that during late-game, everyone knows what kind of unit composition to expect.
Still, I think innovation is not dead in this game. I thought Hyun's game 3 against Vampire was an ingenious use of mutas in order to get himself to late-game. It was just too bad he stayed on mutas too long negating the econ advantage he built up which he could've used to transition straight to late-game compositions. Who knows, maybe someone would be clever enough to come up with a unit composition or strategy that could change PvZ late-game.
Again, I'm not a pro so I'm not saying I'm right, these are just my thoughts and ideas and I hope they help with this discussion.
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On October 19 2012 12:30 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:26 Doubting wrote:On October 19 2012 12:21 ZAiNs wrote:On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous. Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins. Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...) "I don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG He said, I think zerg is doing better then toss right now, not op. Where did you get that translation? Google translate?
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seems like every single pro all of a sudden thinks there 10 times smarter then blizzard and feels compelled to post how the game should be
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Some of those changes do sound cool. Blizz should try to talk to as many pros as possible.
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On October 19 2012 12:32 ImNightmare wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 12:30 Whatson wrote:On October 19 2012 12:26 Doubting wrote:On October 19 2012 12:21 ZAiNs wrote:On October 19 2012 12:08 IcedBacon wrote: A Protoss pro complaining about the game right now is pretty ridiculous. Have you watched a PvZ in the last year? Except your ladder games where you probably die to Immortal Sentry all-ins. Protoss is stupidly good right now in Korea. The immortal Sentry all in is probably the most effective strat in the game. On some maps it is basically auto win (Ohana...) "As long as the maps are done wellI don't think Protoss is OP. I actually think Zerg is more OP" - DRG He said, I think zerg is doing better then toss right now, not op. Where did you get that translation? Google translate? SeeKeR's interview, IDK if he uses Google translate or not, you should ask him.
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