On October 19 2012 13:33 Scarlett` wrote:
not when they're blocked by pylons and you cant do anything
not when they're blocked by pylons and you cant do anything
Ohhhhhhh, that got to burn so bad.
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ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:33 Scarlett` wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 13:29 MysteryMeat1 wrote: the problem with toss being strong midgame is that we have no way to press our advantage without going all-in. So what if we are strong in the midgame, we only have two options with it. Do a two base all-in because we can't just pressure off of two bases or we use our midgame advantage to secure a 3rd which then negates our midgame advantage. Yeah I like how he complains about a 6 pool vs nexus first but as a zerg player we can't hatch first or we die to a cannon rush. AND when wanting to go nexus first you should be scouting and if you see an early pool you put down a forge and put a cannon and you are fine, where as, as a zerg player if you want to hatch first it has to be done blindly and praying to god that toss doesn't scout you in time and goes nexus first. Its also a lot easier to attack non moving buildings then it is to attack a lings in ur base. not when they're blocked by pylons and you cant do anything Ohhhhhhh, that got to burn so bad. | ||
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:28 sitromit wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote: On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful. Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt. I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games. In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch. I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though. Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games? Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching. The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game. Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.> | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:37 SupLilSon wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 13:28 sitromit wrote: On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote: On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful. Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt. I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games. In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch. I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though. Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games? Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching. The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game. Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.> Just out of curiosity sake and a slight 5 secs off topicness, why are you up for 29 hours!? | ||
Doubting
Canada981 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:37 SupLilSon wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 13:28 sitromit wrote: On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote: On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful. Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt. I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games. In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch. I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though. Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games? Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching. The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game. Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.> If Life doesn't finish Terrans off with his aggressive openers he almost always makes infestors when transitioning into a macro game. | ||
Scarlett`
Canada2366 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:37 SupLilSon wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 13:28 sitromit wrote: On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote: On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful. Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt. I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games. In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch. I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though. Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games? Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching. The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game. Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.> He did win one vs TaeJa with muta ling bane all in; but that was an all-in | ||
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:38 ImNightmare wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 13:37 SupLilSon wrote: On October 19 2012 13:28 sitromit wrote: On October 19 2012 13:10 SupLilSon wrote: On October 19 2012 11:55 blade55555 wrote: I like how you seem to think PvZ problems are throughout the whole game when in fact the only time protoss is at a disadvantage in today's pvz now of days is the late game with proper bl/corr/infestor control. Early - mid game protoss is incredibly powerful. Also nerfing the infestor would be fine but you would HAVE to buff zerg to compensate for the nerf. You have to realize the infestor is the only reason zergs can win games zvp and zvt. If you nerfed the infestor you would have to compensate somewhere else otherwise zergs would never win zvp/zvt. I know how frustrating the infestor is (Force fields just as frustrating fyi) but it's also the only unit that makes zerg not underpowered and allows us to win games. In general I would like infestor/sentry changed so they can't stop units and both races rebalanced so they don't have to rely on spells that stop the opponent from microing. It's dumb, it's boring and I never think of it as exciting to watch. I also hope at least for HOTS that blizzard works on late game and makes it so that zerg doesn't have to go bl/corr/infestor to win and can make it more exciting as currently and will since sc2 release as far as I am concerned zvp has been boring as watching paint dry. Blade, I recognized that you are 10x the player I will ever be and know 100x more about SC and RTS than I can ever hope to, but don't we still see Zergs winning without infestors? Leenock and Life are too zergs that come to mind that have found success at the highest level by playing unconventional strategies. Both of them are more than willing to play without the infestor crutch and make it look damn scary. I'm completely open to you smacking me down and corrected me though. Life makes plenty of Infestors. Just because he plays more aggressive early on and doesn't turtle to hive doesn't mean he doesn't make them, did you actually watch his games? Leenock uses Infestors heavily too, I don't know what games you're really watching. The only reason Muta/Ling still works sometimes when players like DRG or Leenock use it, is because the Infestor option exists, and Terrans don't expect it 100% of the time like they used to. And even then, Zerg often has to transition to Infestors to finish the game. Yea I stand corrected. I could have sworn that Life took some games on Taeja and MKP without infestors but again, if I'm wrong just tell me. I've been up for 29 hours now >.> Just out of curiosity sake and a slight 5 secs off topicness, why are you up for 29 hours!? Woke up at 7 PM yesterday and pulled an all nighter because I had a lab report and an English paper due. My English class is from 6:30-9:00 PM and I dropped by a friends house on my way back from school. Reading these threads has kept me up lol. Gonna make shin ramyun and hope food coma brings me the ZZZs. I've also just developed a really wierd sleep schedule from school/GSL/gaming lol | ||
Alasper
179 Posts
On October 19 2012 11:48 Mazer wrote: That's too many nerfs to zerg and buffs to protoss to claim you're objective tbh. This. Oh, and saying "x doesn't make sense" isn't a reason for why x should be nerfed. | ||
mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
If anything I would only complain about how freaking boring pvz matches are to watch these days. They all end up the same for the most part. | ||
Shinespark
Chile843 Posts
So I agree wholeheartedly with Sase, just nerf infestor to oblivion and then buff it. | ||
L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:01 Irre wrote: how exactly are all the complaints coming from P and Z?? Did I miss something and all of a sudden terran is playable by anyone other than like 10 koreans? this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol. the only real complaints atm are TvZ and PvZ, basically zerg is far too strong atm. sase never complains about PvT, apart from the warp in thing to defend dropswhich is very minor and wouldnt affect balance. No one can deny that PvZ needs some serious buffs, i personally like the changes sase suggested, some cool ideas to make the game more balanced and more interesting | ||
L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:45 Shinespark wrote: Infestor is absurdly OP. It moves faster than the other casters, its spells are better, it spawns free units that do get better with upgrades (raven doesn't), it burrows and leaves faster than many units can chase them including detectors. It's good against everything. Every unit in every matchup, infestor is never a bad idea. So I agree wholeheartedly with Sase, just nerf infestor to oblivion and then buff it. the 2 things i would really like to see changed is moving underground (roaches can too, but that requires upgrade) why the hell can infestors? it makes no sense. combine that with casting underground... just makes no sense. remove both of those aspects | ||
ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:50 L3g3nd_ wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 13:01 Irre wrote: how exactly are all the complaints coming from P and Z?? Did I miss something and all of a sudden terran is playable by anyone other than like 10 koreans? this is crazy time for sc2! Its like an explosion of QQ about the game that was bottled up inside for 2 years lol. the only real complaints atm are TvZ and PvZ, basically zerg is far too strong atm. sase never complains about PvT, apart from the warp in thing to defend dropswhich is very minor and wouldnt affect balance. No one can deny that PvZ needs some serious buffs, i personally like the changes sase suggested, some cool ideas to make the game more balanced and more interesting Of course sase doesn't complain about PvT, terrans are complaining about Protoss! Storms and colossus!You are op to them, its the classic rock paper scissor explanation. And you being toss of course would like the changes he recommends even if it would totally break zerg to be weak as shit. | ||
oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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ImNightmare
1575 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:53 oOOoOphidian wrote: The game would be pretty fun for me too if blizzard removed everything in it that I ever lost to and added cool new ways for me to easily win. 8) So...for naniwa's case the drones of nestea? | ||
fer
Canada375 Posts
I love how every time one of these pops up in Teamliquid, there are glowing counter arguments easily available in Korean professionals. Terran impossible to win? Taeja and Mvp crushing faces. Protoss too weak, unfair, not enough options, disadvantageous, etc? I don't think there's ever been a worse time to complain about Protoss; see every tournament in the past 6 months. Zerg? Not doing _as_ hot today as some time ago, but that doesn't say much. Scarlett, Stephano, DRG, Life, etc. Also what is this doing in Starcraft II general. If this remains as it is, it should be a blog, because Starcraft II General does not encompass opinion pieces from some pro player honestly. Maybe go back to it and reformulate it for the Strategy forum? Don't know, but this was painful to read. | ||
ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints. | ||
FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
Why is he complaining so much about zergs? When protoss are doing so well at the moment. Those Korean Toss were literally stomping everybody. I wonder when we can get the stats for September winrate. | ||
multiversed
United States233 Posts
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On October 19 2012 13:57 ilbh wrote: you may be right about some issues in PvZ, but your suggestions are really bad. you want to nerf the shit out of zerg and that's it. lol and some of the balance suggestions you made are just non sense, there are a lot of things to consider when you make any kind of change in the game. it seems more like a QQ thread then a thought out suggestion list, even if you have some reasoning behind your complaints. this is anything but a QQ thread, he explained why zerg was too strong, then addressed changes he would like to see and gave reasons for them and talked about how he thought the changes would affect the game. You obviously dont know what QQ is, or just have something against sase and want to flame him | ||
GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
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