Sase's post here looks like a complaint regarding protoss,
It's something else?
keep walking....
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zedrOne
France471 Posts
Sase's post here looks like a complaint regarding protoss, It's something else? keep walking.... | ||
winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
closed | ||
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
I don't claim to know how to solve this. It's incredibly tough to wriggle out of, because the units are so central to how each race plays. Hopefully the Viper and Tempest solve these problems acceptably. | ||
Douillos
France3195 Posts
That would force Z to attack during the window between broods coming out and the M-ship coming out, and once the M ship would be out Toss would be at an advantage, lets say something that could completely nullify the spines (I think Sase has a good point with Zergs making 100000 spines, thats also what makes the matchup so boring to watch IMO). | ||
winthrop
Hong Kong956 Posts
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ekewow
Sweden51 Posts
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On October 19 2012 12:21 goswser wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 12:19 eleaf wrote: The key idea is pretty simple. Actually all the pros or the normal players agree with it: 1. make spell castors less powerful, we dont want to play wc3 rpg games in Starcraft. Mothership is a joke. FF is a joke. Fungal is a joke. 2. infestors. How many times have to say this, infestors>everything except infestors. Starcraft 2 now is a game to see who can make most infestors and this is not a joke. 3. cool unit are not fun. Balance around the cool units are the most stupid idea and unfortunately, Blizzard have to this coz there is always a cost for being cool. Ever look at brood war? Defilers were one of the most powerful units in the game. Science vessels were so good against zerg, and templars/arbiters were insanely strong. Dude, both defilers and Science vessels required like 200% more micro then both infestor / Sentry etc. Defilers and Science vessels was only really good if your control was excellent. Everyone can use infestor etc.. | ||
namste
Finland2292 Posts
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NeWeNiyaLord
Norway2474 Posts
On October 19 2012 11:38 SaSe wrote: So wanted to do this for some time but been practising alot and I'm in general really lazy to write stuff but here we go. Right now I feel the biggest problem is the pvz matchup. There is so many ways toss can lose from the early game to late game by really really small mistakes such as 6pool and random ling runbys in the start. I don't really mind early pools. I don't mind ling runbys either, as a professional player I should not let stuff like this happen. The thing I feel is really unfair though is that if a zerg makes one of these, they will never be extremly far behind. If toss goes for a double proxy, the only chance it will work is if zerg makes hatch first, and then yet it's not a freewin like it is for zerg if toss makes nex first vs 6 pool. Difference is if toss fails double proxy it's over. My suggestion would be to put a timer on spawning pool, like you can only build it after 1:20 or whatever the time for 10 pool is. Then mindgames would still be possible since a 10pool crush a nexus first noscout. The only other option I would see to make this fair is to make the rampblockers a building with 0 vision you can select and salvage(your own one only of course) if you so would like to(for no money lol). Then zerg wouldn't have to worry about double bunker and toss could salvage it and make a cute little wall so we actually get ahead vs a 9 probe scouted 6pool. Terran can salvage bunkers, lift buildings, up down supply depots, cruise around and stuff. Zerg sees everything and moves faster. What does toss do? Nothing. Random ling runbys... The most annoying thing with this I see is even if you have a probe in the choke or a warping in unit, lings still get through. This has been an issue for the 2 years I played the game and yet has nothing been done. A probe on hold should be a probe on hold. At least that makes sense to me. Back to what I first said, what can toss do. Regen shield woooohooooo. How about pylons got a feature similar to terrans supply depots. They could put up some psi between itself and another building(1 hex) and no units can pass through. Would open the possibility for toss to have more than one hole in the walls vs zerg and therefore make toss more mobile in your own base. Also would free up a little supply. One thing I never understood is when they buffed queen range and overlord speed so zergs can scout easier. How is toss supposed to scout. A good zerg will always have 2 lings outside toss base, the probe will be hurt when it arrives at zerg base. Queen will kill it easily. Toss will never be able to scout if zerg makes gas or no gas and therefor toss has never any change of knowing if zerg is doing a late allin which hits before warpgate or not. This is completely impossible, believe me, I tried alot. I don't know how to address this issue, overlords move way too fast. They can hide in the air and above highgrounds, it should be enough imo. Or just give queen same range as before, but maybe that would crush the tvz matchup. I guess I can send 3 probes if I wanna scout... Ok lets move to lategame. Here is where I tried most lately and failed most aswell, tried almost every unit composition. There is some good ones. But it's extremly hard and it doesn't matter how good toss plays in most cases. If zerg doesnt F up badly, they will win. I think this is mainly because of one reason. It's not infestors, it's not broodlords. Surprise surprise. It's because spines and spores can move. It doesn't matter if they can move outside creep or not. Just that they can move is really bugged imo. The new style of koreans is making 100 drones, 20 spines before toss pushes out and just wait with infestors. Then there is no way toss can attack into it(because infestors will lock your army if u do and keep doing so until it's dead). Later they just spend all gas on a few broodlords, alot of infestors and all minerals on drones/spines/spores. They wont even build a few lings to harass with lol. Spread creep until they are in range of toss base and then toss is forced a fight vs the extra 100 supply 0 food army. Don't forget infested terrans and broodlings are 0 supply aswell. I don't know what would be the best option to fix the pvz lategame but I can write a list of things that could be tweaked. But honestly static defense is supposed to be static defense. Not 0 supply attack units. Maybe give them a 15 range from where they can move where you first built them. I will start my list by the buggiest thing in the whole game.
I am not saying all these things are needed. For infestor probably one or two. Make a tab in hotkeys called priority units or something. You should be able to choose yourself what order you want to have your units. For example if you have templars and sentries in the same army you should be able if you want to have sentries or templars first. Hope you understand, like if you only have medivacs and marauders in the tab you have to press tab T to stim, should be able to choose if you want it like this or if u want marauders first so you don't have to tab. I am really tired after playing 12 hours and writing this for 2 hours so I will try to cut it down but I really wanna share some opinions on HOTS aswell. I never played a single game of HOTS but I read a little about it. Today I read they wanna change the oracle. I thought alot about how to make it a cool and skillful unit. Back when they introduced it in the Alfa I remember artosis talking about how much multitasking it would take. Back then until I saw someone stream in the beta I thought entomb disabled ONE mineral patch. Maybe make entomb 5 or 10 energy to cost and disable one mineral patch. This way it will require alot more multitasking, it will lose more shield and u might not have time to entomb all fields before it takes damage. It has to something you can shiftclick though. Also I saw you can make tempest without fleet beacon. This made me think then maybe the oracle should be the new arbiter kinda. You are looking for new spells, I will give you some cool ideas.
3 hours now. Really really sleepy, sorry, wanna write so much more Give nexus ability to attack within + reveal within 10 range for 50 energy. And remove mothership core! I didn't comment much on terran because I didn't read much about it in Hots. Would be happy to discuss more. Would be happy to talk to Blizzard. I might see whiny but I think I am pretty objective. I only play the game because I love to play it. I wanna win by skill, speed and cleverness, not by imba. Thank you for reading Best Regads, Kim 'Sase' Hammar | ||
VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On October 19 2012 11:38 SaSe wrote: *Infested terrans can attack air. Makes toss air pretty useless. Could remove this. I think this is the best of SaSes suggestions, and the only thing needed. Not necessarily removing, but tweaking infestor AA damage would solve a lot of problems zvp lategame. Maybe just reducing the range from 5 to 3. | ||
SC2ShoWTimE
Germany722 Posts
1 spine beats 2 stalker and 2 infested terrans(50 energy!!!) already beat 1 stalker(no upgrades/micro). when a zerg just spamms 20-30 infested terrans(energy of 3-4 infestors) beneath their broodlords and maybe even brought some spines with him it is pretty obvious why stalker just evaporate if they blink towards the broodlords. | ||
iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
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bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
ARENT YOU tired of INFESTORS every map,every game,every match-up,ZvZ,ZvP,ZvT. I remember back in the days when blizzard investigated muta being op due to it being viable in every matchup. They said that if they see a unit being used too much they will nerf it?What happened blizz? Infestors?They can harrass,they are probably the best defensive unit and thanks to infested terrans they can serve an offensive purpose pretty well Sup bliz? Yesterday i decided to watch Roro vs DRG. i was a bit late for the stream so when i actually turned it on i saw 22 infestors and 5 roaches against 10 roaches and 16 infestors. Everything was sitting still in green while infested terrans demolished the battlefield. very interesting game,pretty micro intensive. and zergs dominating eu ladder is pretty absurd for a long time now. | ||
speknek
758 Posts
Kind of contradicting yourself, since it's still the infestors that are broken and can root your units in spine range. A fix for a lot of ridiculousness in the game now would be to stop fungal from rooting for so long. Either make it a slow or root for like 2sec instead of ages. Or giving units that are fungalled like a 1 or 2 second immunity to fungal after the first one expires. Anyway, this same post can be written for TvZ. Infestors will eventually nerfed or "changed" eventually, it's just a matter of time. | ||
HonorZ
France858 Posts
Hit me ! | ||
Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On October 19 2012 17:53 SC2ShoWTimE wrote: dont agree with everything but the point with mass spines/spores and infested terrans really is true. it is incredible how many free units(0 supply units) zerg can add to an already super powerful lategame army. it is like protoss hallucination doing damage or something. 1 spine beats 2 stalker and 2 infested terrans(50 energy!!!) already beat 1 stalker(no upgrades/micro). when a zerg just spamms 20-30 infested terrans(energy of 3-4 infestors) beneath their broodlords and maybe even brought some spines with him it is pretty obvious why stalker just evaporate if they blink towards the broodlords. Please notice that without IT and Spines, zerg get crushed by lategame protoss. | ||
Champi
1422 Posts
in hots u cant warp up high ground anymore either so i dont think the pylon flower is necessary either. i was watching nightend grilled on youtube and he mentioned that he thinks Blords should be 6 supply instead of 4 like every other tier 3 units, which i REALLY agree with, i think that would be great. i like some of ur ideas for infestors such as a burrow movement upgrade, or no upgrades for broodlings/terrans since theyre all 0 supply units. i dunno if they're necessary tho but would be interesting to test out the balance of that. i do agree with the spine and spores moving though. i think this is a big problem, and i initially thought that they let them do it because in the alpha of sc2 they were gonna let photon cannons move, and bunkers could be salvaged for 100% return. But now that theyve both been nerfed it might be interesting to see their movement get taken away aswell, although i dunno how it might affect zvt or zvz... i also agree that its stupid to have a mothership unit that ur only allowed one of. but in hots i like the mothership core, its a staple unit in protoss right now as the cannon it puts on the nexus, and being able to recall ur army if its out of position vs a base race. is so good, and fixes a lot of flaws in weak protoss home defence that i think we suffer from in WOL tl;dr: i think HotS changes and units will help deal with most of the problems you adress, and it will be unecessary to implement most of these changes you are suggesting, as HotS will have their own instead. Although i agree something is wrong with lategame PvZ infestor Broodlord Spine vs vortex. and i would like to see some changes to broods (6 supply) or infestors (spell nerfs) or spines (cant relocate), in the hots beta. | ||
fidelity
Sweden410 Posts
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Citna
United States3 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 19 2012 18:14 Insoleet wrote: Show nested quote + On October 19 2012 17:53 SC2ShoWTimE wrote: dont agree with everything but the point with mass spines/spores and infested terrans really is true. it is incredible how many free units(0 supply units) zerg can add to an already super powerful lategame army. it is like protoss hallucination doing damage or something. 1 spine beats 2 stalker and 2 infested terrans(50 energy!!!) already beat 1 stalker(no upgrades/micro). when a zerg just spamms 20-30 infested terrans(energy of 3-4 infestors) beneath their broodlords and maybe even brought some spines with him it is pretty obvious why stalker just evaporate if they blink towards the broodlords. Please notice that without IT and Spines, zerg get crushed by lategame protoss. Or without infestors in general zerg gets crushed by terran and toss. What people need to understand - nerfing the infestor means zerg needs buffs to compensate, just like if force field were removed protoss would need to be buffed to compensate (I give this example because that is how critical infestors are for zergs due to are other units being shit). | ||
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