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On November 10 2012 06:22 orBitual wrote:Show nested quote +I still fell like burrowed moving units should be more visible. Esp PvZ where unburrowing roaches "ontop" of sentries is quite a gamechanger. Yeah abilities should not really create any difference in the game. Show nested quote +I think it's sad to infestor burrow movement into a siege line with low risk high reward and blow up tanks. Yeah these low risk high reward actions like siege are really mucking up the game play. Did you seriously just call siege tanks low risk high reward?
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On November 10 2012 06:37 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:22 orBitual wrote:I still fell like burrowed moving units should be more visible. Esp PvZ where unburrowing roaches "ontop" of sentries is quite a gamechanger. Yeah abilities should not really create any difference in the game. I think it's sad to infestor burrow movement into a siege line with low risk high reward and blow up tanks. Yeah these low risk high reward actions like siege are really mucking up the game play. Did you seriously just call siege tanks low risk high reward?
I was just agreeing with the guy before me.
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Voted Other.
I do not see why an RTS game should have any form of invisibility. It detracts from the game back increasing the odds of a player getting lucky. There are plenty of other ways to do harassment (Flying units, drops, blink etc) and new ways could be implemented if needed, but invisibility is not a good way.
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I am personally lost, why pro gamers can see cloak so easy and fail to see the whole ground moving. Maybe it is because their settings benefit seeing cloaking units, while burrowed movement gets harder. Though I tried around and even with the optimal setting to see cloaked units I see burrowed units moving just fine. The positive thing of this, that Zerg player often risk their whole army trying to burrow under you. And no the graphic bug I had where underground moving units are giant black dot on the ground is fixed.
And stop with saying observer tech costs alot ... it did cost alot in BW and was even more essential. In Sc2 Observers cost nothing. Well maybe a second Robo.
Anyway there is no issue with burrow, as long as mapmakers realize that fog will hide burrowed movement.
On topic I think Blizzard has to change cloak a bit though, atleast the setting where cloak is really easy to see should be reworked somehow. Burrow seems perfect though from the visibility. I like it when in tournaments they go into player vision and you see the whole ground moving and the player even caming around in that position and there is no reaction at all to it.
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On November 10 2012 04:39 habeck wrote: different race, different things.
Exactly. OPs argument rests on the assumption that cloaked units form a category to which burrowed units belong and in which everything should be equivalent. Assumptions of this type are made so often, and they are wrong because the races have different characteristics.
"Two zerglings cost as much as a marine, but a marine can shoot up while zerg is so vulnerable to air early game. Something is wrong! Zerglings need to be cheaper." Random unit comparisons like these are totally pointless.
And no, I don't think infestors are OP because players struggle to get detection. Then banshees and dts would be OP as well. Of course, making them more visible might be a feasible way to nerf them, but not because of theorycrafted arguments about equivalence that doesn's exist and isn't even meant to exist.
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Yes, when like 40 roaches are moving on ohana, that's not that hard to see, but 1 infestor sneaking under your army on certain tilesets is close to impossible to notice. Even like Code S level players hardly ever see it. And I think the game is old enough that you cant really say things like the very best of pros cant/dont do things simply cuz they're bad. Maybe you have magical eyes or some shit, but i dont believe any1 who says they can always see an infestor moving behind their mineral lines.
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United States7483 Posts
Playing the game on all low graphics except for special effects (at ultra) makes cloaked units super easy to spot, but doesn't make it easy to see burrowed units.
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I've seen pros often unit surround 1 lone DT until detection comes, but never seen a pro spot 1 lone infester sneaking into their base.
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Burrow is a racial trait. Maybe allow protoss to repair buildings? Burrow is fine.
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good point!!
agree with the OP.
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Blizz needs to make burrow a bit more visible, but only for the stationary ones, like banelings. I don't even know if there's even a difference in the visuals when there's a burrowed unit there, but you can still see cloaked units when they are stationary. Just my 2 cents.
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On November 10 2012 07:23 Tobeelzebub wrote: Blizz needs to make burrow a bit more visible, but only for the stationary ones, like banelings. I don't even know if there's even a difference in the visuals when there's a burrowed unit there, but you can still see cloaked units when they are stationary. Just my 2 cents. to be fair, cloaked units are much easier to spot when moving. imo no movement = less visibility.
I think the stationary burrowed shouldnt necessarily be more visible.
i am of the opinion that moving burrowed units should be slightly more visible but stationary ones can keep the current visibility
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Tunneling Roaches: easy to see with Bugs Bunny floor-trails. Burrowed Roaches: impossible to see.
Tunneling Infestors: too hard to see for their damage potential - for a unit that is physically larger than a roach to displace less dirt while tunneling and to also not require research to move while burrowed, this seems like a flaw in design. Burrowed Infestors: impossible to see.
Since no other zerg units can tunnel in WoL and therefore cannot displace dirt, there seems to be no worth in even mentioning them, but it's worth mentioning that as burrow becomes an even more flexible ability for more zerg units it may be worth adding more visibility to tunneling and maybe to burrowed units in HotS, particularly on lower GFX settings.
I still believe that WoL should be considered finished at this point, and that with a limited amount of time before HotS realease, the focus should be entirely on HotS for Blizzard. Hopefully they don't overlook things like this, because they make a pretty big difference, especially in this infestor heavy metagame that will be leading into HotS.
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If you make it any more visible, it'll be obvious.
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Burrowed is a big problem imo, it's just so unfair for other races. Especially when Terran play mech vs Z, burrow roaches and infestors are painful to deal with. I don't mind baneling or zergling but roaches and infestor is just not right.
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On November 10 2012 07:32 dUTtrOACh wrote: Tunneling Roaches: easy to see with Bugs Bunny floor-trails. Burrowed Roaches: impossible to see.
Tunneling Infestors: too hard to see for their damage potential - for a unit that is physically larger than a roach to displace less dirt while tunneling and to also not require research to move while burrowed, this seems like a flaw in design. Burrowed Infestors: impossible to see.
Since no other zerg units can tunnel in WoL and therefore cannot displace dirt, there seems to be no worth in even mentioning them, but it's worth mentioning that as burrow becomes an even more flexible ability for more zerg units it may be worth adding more visibility to tunneling and maybe to burrowed units in HotS, particularly on lower GFX settings.
I still believe that WoL should be considered finished at this point, and that with a limited amount of time before HotS realease, the focus should be entirely on HotS for Blizzard. Hopefully they don't overlook things like this, because they make a pretty big difference, especially in this infestor heavy metagame that will be leading into HotS.
Freaking this. Was watching MLG and noticed waaay too many series where Terrans missed burrowed festors going into their mains. Mainly thinking of Flash v. Life extended series. Burrow being harder to see isn't inherently a problem, but when it comes to infestors it's a little bit imbalanced, because of the way they deal damage. All the ITs come out in one wave, whereas a DT or a banshee has to kill workers one at a time the infestors can be dealing damage without even being there. If that mechanic is going to stay, I think they should make it a little bit more visible so the best of us can scan it.
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On November 10 2012 07:39 PH wrote: If you make it any more visible, it'll be obvious. Just like dts,obs and banshee?? Make it more visible doesn't mean fully visible.
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On November 10 2012 04:46 QQKachoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 04:42 WaesumNinja wrote: What's up with this recent crusade against infestors? I keep seeing threads like these popping up everywhere, filled with biased people. I kind of hope that all of these threads and suggested changes are coming up because people want to change the current meta with zerg since infestor is used in every matchup. But in reality it is probably because they want their matchup to be easier and have to put in less effort when playing against zerg.
Very well said, I go to these threads hoping for some constructive thought process in the comments. I think I am going to stop hoping after this thread.
All these claims about infestors being more destructive than other cloaked units is more a problem with Infested terrans than burrow itself.
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