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I have been playing HOTS since beta has begun. I have not even touched WOL since. HOTS has added so much to Starcraft we still have yet to understand and use properly. I am top masters in HOTS, I am not bragging just trying to make a point. By no means am I even close to mastering the new units, and I use them very often. In battles there are so many micro decisions you have to make that there is not one person that can do them all and play the game "perfectly". That being said, I do not understand how people can say they are taking micro from the game. That makes no sense to me. Masters is top 2% of players. Meaning 98% of the people in liquid are no way even close to mastering this game, and the masters themselves. If you are complaining about 1a army then you are playing at a low level and thats what happens. You can add any unit of any variety but when you are playing the game at low levels or even anything under the highest you are going to encounter people who macro harder and don't take microing so seriously, thus 1a their armies. HOTS is a great addition and is close in balance. There are no units that are tipping the balance so much that it is making it unplayable. People will always complain and poke holes but at the end of the day you have to look at facts. No one is playing this game perfectly and never will. Micro is just about infinite relative to our capabilities. Play the game yourself and make the judgement. Just keep in mind things take practice to understand and master and seeing the path is different than walking.
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On January 03 2013 04:21 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 03:52 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 02:28 Scrubwave wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. Ouch. Can't be THAT bad. Buying hots after what they turned WOL into and the diablo 3 fiasco? No thanks. What Diablo 3 fiasco? You mean the PC only game that sold well over 8 million copies world wide? One of the highest selling PC games in years. The 5th most searched for term in 2012 as rated by Google. The game where they banned thousands of accounts for using bots just last month. People need to stop drinking their own Cool-Aid. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii/user-reviewsThis fiasco, maybe you haven't heard of it. I just want to point out that he didn't mention GoldenEye's score or Ocarina of Time's. 96, 99. He has that confirmation bias thing going on. He probably scoured the net looking for some bad ratings/haters and still couldn't find anything. Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 22:00 LgNKami wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance. Since when did terran players 1a with any kind of early attack? Even all ins required stupid micro to work, ESPECIALLY the 1/1/1. I don't really see where your aggression comes from for terran players (unless you are one of those bronze guys that thinks stim is op). Ha, don't even get me started on stim brah. Joking. 1/1/1 just strikes me as something I could start doing today and end up with GM level t vs p in about 2 weeks or something. Try making banshees or something. Whether you get cloak or not, they have to make 2 worthless observers. Toss has to defend multiple locations, so they have to have at least 2 stalkers at each location. And, since you can eventually attack with banshees and the rest of your army, together, toss can never just make a 2 stalker to 1 banshee ratio. They will lose some stalkers in that big attack to other stuff, so they have to make even more stalkers to compensate, so the left over banshees don't just 1 shot everything after the battle. So, basically toss ends up with a lot of units that no one would want to have. How much micro you really need to do against stalkers? Just 1a. Force fields bothering you? Try getting a siege tank and sniping the sentry or something. I just have that feeling like I could really own face with that build and it wouldn't take much skill. It just feels like it takes 20 times more skill and knowledge to stop that build than to execute it. Hey, even if I were wrong, I could just proxy 2 rax every game and be GM, unless you want to tell me that only the super elite boxer like micro players can pull that off. Terran, it's a ridic race in the early game if you want to do an all-in. The mule should have some kinda worship thread or something, where all of the all-iners give their graces to the mule.
I'd like to point out that other people have already proven you can get to GM doing 1 base cheese (the how to 6 pool to GM guide). That being said, of any types of cheese, Terran's is the hardest by far but also probably the strongest (the one that relies the least on your opponent not reacting properly and the most on the you micro'ing properly, i.e. your own skill). Micro vs Stalkers is anything but 1a, Stalkers have the advantage in movement speed and range but only just so you need to do a bit of a dance moving back and forth to get the Stalker in too close in order to deal health damage to the Stalker against a good player. Edit: I also doubt you could 1/1/1 or proxy 11/11 to GM without considerable practice, at least in TvT almost every Terran player will be able to hold these if they don't play too greedy and if a Protoss player scouts your 1/1/1 they'll almost always hold in the current metagame.
All of that being said, Terran used to have the advantage in the early game but no longer does. Now, rather than Terran having many aggressive options and Protoss basically being forced into 1 gate fe into 3 gate robo, Terran is the one basically forced into 1rax fe into 3 rax while Protoss has a variety of aggressive options at their disposal. Will the Medivac speed and healing rate upgrades be enough to offset this and give Terran an advantage in mid or late game? Currently it's looking like the answer is no, but really there's no way to tell until more pro Protoss / Terran start playing.
As a Terran player, I feel like I'm mostly stuck doing the same things as in HotS as in WoL except that Protoss is now much stronger. That combined with a more gimmicky TvT and a TvZ where making Thors / Tanks is suicide due to vipers, and there really isn't a lot of incentive for me to play HotS atm. That being said, I obviously will, but it's a bit sad for me atm.
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Bisutopia19035 Posts
I have been a full time Starcraft spectator since 2006. From my point of view I bought WOL to test out but overall to support blizzard in the expansion of my favorite series. As a spectator I gave WOL ample chance to improve and become a fun game to watch. I was nearly convinced by the end of 2011 when TvZ games in the GSL looked BW worthy in their excitement. But that time was brief. (coming from a GSL season pass holder for 2012).
I may still watch HOTS but I no longer support SC2 financially. I refuse to get a GSL pass for the coming season. I don't think HOTS has done anything for the excitement of the spectator. So while gameplay may have improved it still appears to be a mostly dull game. I think what I learned from WOL is that 10% of the games can be mind blowingly exciting and I keep watching for those games, but on the whole it falls short I'm disappointed.
In conclusion, unless something changes massively for HOTS from a spectator point of view I'll be waiting till there is a massive sale and the game is worth 5 bucks.
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On January 03 2013 05:08 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 03:06 SuperYo1000 wrote:On January 03 2013 02:51 IntoTheWow wrote: After Diablo 3 and WoL im not blindly buying Blizzard games anymore. really? thats cool I guess but seriously what company puts out quality games anymore. Im pretty sure we are just Blizzard spoiled. "If the game isnt brilliant then its only worth my time to shit on" Seems to be the mentality of kids today. In truth, its blizzards fault, they created this community monster Or you can go play the recycled brainless COD, Madden, Halo series. Or I can choose not to make extreme examples and go play good games by other companies, or even indie developers. :/
your free to do whatever you want. My point is that players today are never satisfied. I would like to challenge anyone to find a RTS mulitplayer game thats better then WOL mulitiplayer. In truth, nothing comes close
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On January 03 2013 05:06 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 04:54 playa wrote:On January 03 2013 04:46 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 04:21 playa wrote:On January 03 2013 03:52 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 02:28 Scrubwave wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. Ouch. Can't be THAT bad. Buying hots after what they turned WOL into and the diablo 3 fiasco? No thanks. What Diablo 3 fiasco? You mean the PC only game that sold well over 8 million copies world wide? One of the highest selling PC games in years. The 5th most searched for term in 2012 as rated by Google. The game where they banned thousands of accounts for using bots just last month. People need to stop drinking their own Cool-Aid. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii/user-reviewsThis fiasco, maybe you haven't heard of it. I just want to point out that he didn't mention GoldenEye's score or Ocarina of Time's. 96, 99. He has that confirmation bias thing going on. He probably scoured the net looking for some bad ratings/haters and still couldn't find anything. Why would I? I couldn't care less about those games. If you want to circlejerk over oot and ge make another thread about them. Whether I was joking or not, if someone compares HotS to two games on anyone's top 50 games list, if not top 20, you can't say "there's no way HotS could suck that bad." You're just hating to hate. No foundation for it. You bringing up D3's rating on that site but not the other games you indirectly commented on, is simply a contradiction in my eyes. Personally, I would just like to know what makes WoL better than HotS in your eyes? Terran's mech probably does still need work, but it's not like it was good in WoL. Terran's bio is stronger now late game, which everyone cried about. What's the hang up for you? If you think that putting HoTS next to an over decade old console shooter and Zelda game is doing HoTS any favour, you're wrong. Right now, there aren't many things that make WoL better, but there was a time before this whole zerg fest, infestor on infestor action when all matchups were at least enjoyable to watch (maybe except PvP if you're not a micro-freak). HoTS doesn't fix many issues like deathballs and blob vs blob, if it doesn't fix them, why waste money. And I brought up D3 because D3's Wilson is as competent at D3 design as Browder at SC2 design.
Firstly, it's largely a joke, as any game with Terran tears would instantly volt into my top games list, given how I feel about Terran's early-mid game in WoL. Imagine if I compared HotS to BW, another decade old game, a lot of kids would be like "you and I wish." Obviously graphics get better over time, but it takes a while for legendary games to not at least seem good.
I do enjoy watching p vs p. I do think everyone agrees on infestors. They make games horrible to watch. You look at past zerg players that played BW and their results in SC 2, and you will notice something is drastically different. Personally, I thought the limited unit selection made zerg the hardest race in BW, as controlling 1000 lings, along with everything else was absurdly hard. I don't know what it is that increased every zerg player's skill ten fold, but the infestor seems to get a lot of blame for it. I have my doubts on whether that's warranted or at least to what degree. I just think it's unfair for that cloud to hang over them. If a unit is seemingly tarnishing a player's results, you have to find a way to remove it or make it to where people don't have an incentive to mass it. It's not enjoyable to watch or a unit that allows for skill to show.
I think HotS is headed in the right direction, though, minus the last infestor buff that I haven't even seen zerg players agree that it's a nerf to the WoL infestor... I hated the oracle. Now, I think it's amazing. It's like perfect. It came a long ways. I didn't like mothership core, either. At first I did, but I absolutely hated subsequent changes. Now, I think it's a blessing from god himself... I'm biased as things seem to have worked out for us. I know it's hard to be gung ho when your race seems to be getting the shaft.
I love how all-ins are being reduced in strength. I haven't played that much chess, but imagine how cool games would be if everyone went with the fastest checkmate strategy and that worked at the highest level? The game would be a joke. I hope zerg is a lot better against the immortal/sentry all-in due to the swarm locust. I'd like to see a lot more thought go into winning games this time around. If people know you're going to all-in and what it will be, it shouldn't work 99% of the time.
Anyways, I didn't play beta for a while due to being pissed with the changes. I know there's not much time before the release, but all it takes is one or two changes that jive with you before you would never think about playing WoL again and pity those poor individuals that play such filth.
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On January 03 2013 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 04:54 a176 wrote:On January 03 2013 04:24 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 03:52 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 02:28 Scrubwave wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. Ouch. Can't be THAT bad. Buying hots after what they turned WOL into and the diablo 3 fiasco? No thanks. What Diablo 3 fiasco? You mean the PC only game that sold well over 8 million copies world wide? One of the highest selling PC games in years. The 5th most searched for term in 2012 as rated by Google. The game where they banned thousands of accounts for using bots just last month. People need to stop drinking their own Cool-Aid. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii/user-reviewsThis fiasco, maybe you haven't heard of it. You just linked me to the user reviews on metacritic to prove D3 was a bad game? Metacritic, where you can make unlimited accounts are can review any game without even proving that you played it all the way through and provide such great information as “Not as good as Diablo 2: Score of 0”. The same place there amazing games like Bastion and Mark of the Ninja get 1s and 2s from idiots and are rated 8.0 by users over all. Your evidence is overwhelming. So what is your point? That the score for Bastion is entirely legit but D3 isn't? Bastion has a rating of 9.6 from critical reviews and Mark of the Ninja has a similar score, yet don’t peek above 8.0 from users. The point is the user reviews are next to worthless and the more popular the game, more likely people are going to troll the un-moderated user reviews section. It is like looking at YouTube comments to see if a video is any good. What makes you think that the score "critics" give is more legit than the scores users give?
Who cares, make a new topic. If you hate sc2 you can play another RTS game called Brood War; I hear there's about 10 people still playing that game, and I hear shitting on sc2 is pretty popular on their side of the internet.
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On January 03 2013 04:21 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 03:52 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 02:28 Scrubwave wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. Ouch. Can't be THAT bad. Buying hots after what they turned WOL into and the diablo 3 fiasco? No thanks. What Diablo 3 fiasco? You mean the PC only game that sold well over 8 million copies world wide? One of the highest selling PC games in years. The 5th most searched for term in 2012 as rated by Google. The game where they banned thousands of accounts for using bots just last month. People need to stop drinking their own Cool-Aid. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii/user-reviewsThis fiasco, maybe you haven't heard of it. I just want to point out that he didn't mention GoldenEye's score or Ocarina of Time's. 96, 99. He has that confirmation bias thing going on. He probably scoured the net looking for some bad ratings/haters and still couldn't find anything. Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 22:00 LgNKami wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance. Since when did terran players 1a with any kind of early attack? Even all ins required stupid micro to work, ESPECIALLY the 1/1/1. I don't really see where your aggression comes from for terran players (unless you are one of those bronze guys that thinks stim is op). Ha, don't even get me started on stim brah. Joking. 1/1/1 just strikes me as something I could start doing today and end up with GM level t vs p in about 2 weeks or something. Try making banshees or something. Whether you get cloak or not, they have to make 2 worthless observers. Toss has to defend multiple locations, so they have to have at least 2 stalkers at each location. And, since you can eventually attack with banshees and the rest of your army, together, toss can never just make a 2 stalker to 1 banshee ratio. They will lose some stalkers in that big attack to other stuff, so they have to make even more stalkers to compensate, so the left over banshees don't just 1 shot everything after the battle. So, basically toss ends up with a lot of units that no one would want to have. How much micro you really need to do against stalkers? Just 1a. Force fields bothering you? Try getting a siege tank and sniping the sentry or something. I just have that feeling like I could really own face with that build and it wouldn't take much skill. It just feels like it takes 20 times more skill and knowledge to stop that build than to execute it. Hey, even if I were wrong, I could just proxy 2 rax every game and be GM, unless you want to tell me that only the super elite boxer like micro players can pull that off. Terran, it's a ridic race in the early game if you want to do an all-in. The mule should have some kinda worship thread or something, where all of the all-iners give their graces to the mule.
Lol. This is so wrong that I literally laughed out loud.
Before I start to use arguments I note that a terran player saying something similar about protoss like: you can 4 gate blink allin every PvT and get to GM would have been given a warning by now. TL moderators being inconsistent in this regard is what ultimately allows this severely misinformed view of yours to prevail in this community. This makes me sad.
Go ahead. Start a new account playing terran. Do 1/1/1 in every TvP. You will be successful in the beginning. You will beat master protosses for sure if your micro and multitask is worth anything. You will get many freewins. Freewins caused by the fact that your opponent either scouted you and didn't react properly or by the fact that your opponent didn't scout you at all, which in both cases is nothing but poor play. Once you start facing protosses who are actually good and are in master league (or whatever) because they actually have game sense, good mechanics and can do proper scouting you will start failing miserably.
If your opponent plays blindly assuming you do 1 rax expo into medivac stim shields +1 timing like 95% of all TvPs you can beat him easily. If opponent scouts you and deals properly with your banshees you will likely not be able to micro good enough to beat him. Practice a year or so and you can do it. After 4 weeks .... no way.
Oh. and it is the very same thing with proxy 2 rax. If you were right we would see 1/1/1 and proxy 2 rax all the time. There is a reason pro players don't do those builds anymore and that reason is that they are figured out builds that mostly suck. They are brought forward sometimes though, but that is more because of metagaming reasons in a BoX or whatever. The fact that _you_ lose to terrans doing 1/1/1 doesn't mean anything. WIth the proper scout and reaction you will learn that it is now 20x easier to hold than with your old play.
Terran is still quite allin though, just later in the game. The only objection I have with your analysis is that you imply that terran are early game kings who can just make marines (and tanks+banshees) and a-move to victory. Terrans have been pigeonholed into doing the same (BIO)-builds every game because of nerfed stim and buffed immortals.
Back on topic this matters because Hots originally promised TvP mech. Hots promised 3 new units I could use. What I got was 2 new units. A mine that sucks so much balls compared to the spider mine that it is not even funny and a mech unit which is a transformed hellion and actually a firebat which is a bio unit.
It matters because every TvP game in WoL that starts with a 1 rax expand into 3 rax double gas with a bunker at front is seriously hurting e-sports. There is no real variation. There is no excitement. There are only 2 players who loses if the they fuck up and wins if the other one fucks up.
It matters because instead of "we've been having a lot of fun with the new infestor in internal tests" David Kim should have had been having fun trying a buffed version of mech in TvP. There has been a beta for 4 months. The have fixed the design of the "new" terran units. They have gone over and modified existing units. And to this moment it didn't strike them that testing tanks that makes full damage to shields could inject some energy into terran play.
I can only recomend the ones that feels like this to protest by not buying Hots.
I wont.
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Personally,I won't buy a single starcraft 2 expansion until the colossus is removed from the game,or gets rendered useless.
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Bisutopia19035 Posts
On January 03 2013 05:37 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 05:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 03 2013 03:06 SuperYo1000 wrote:On January 03 2013 02:51 IntoTheWow wrote: After Diablo 3 and WoL im not blindly buying Blizzard games anymore. really? thats cool I guess but seriously what company puts out quality games anymore. Im pretty sure we are just Blizzard spoiled. "If the game isnt brilliant then its only worth my time to shit on" Seems to be the mentality of kids today. In truth, its blizzards fault, they created this community monster Or you can go play the recycled brainless COD, Madden, Halo series. Or I can choose not to make extreme examples and go play good games by other companies, or even indie developers. :/ your free to do whatever you want. My point is that players today are never satisfied. I would like to challenge anyone to find a RTS mulitplayer game thats better then WOL mulitiplayer. In truth, nothing comes close I hate that argument. Just because there isn't a better RTS out there doesn't mean we have to buy this one. I'm satisfied with plenty of other games. And I do expect quality games and it's too bad you can't find any.
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Every time I have watched one of the pro matches of HotS the new units seem either really bad and/or really bland, with the exception of mines.
I love SC but all the new units they have added for SC2 have been worse in practically every way to BW, that isn't just nostalgia speaking because I still fire BW up from time to time and the units just feel straight up better designed.
I'm probably going to buy it, but eh I'm far from hyped.
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On January 03 2013 05:40 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 04:21 playa wrote:On January 03 2013 03:52 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 02:28 Scrubwave wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. Ouch. Can't be THAT bad. Buying hots after what they turned WOL into and the diablo 3 fiasco? No thanks. What Diablo 3 fiasco? You mean the PC only game that sold well over 8 million copies world wide? One of the highest selling PC games in years. The 5th most searched for term in 2012 as rated by Google. The game where they banned thousands of accounts for using bots just last month. People need to stop drinking their own Cool-Aid. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii/user-reviewsThis fiasco, maybe you haven't heard of it. I just want to point out that he didn't mention GoldenEye's score or Ocarina of Time's. 96, 99. He has that confirmation bias thing going on. He probably scoured the net looking for some bad ratings/haters and still couldn't find anything. On January 02 2013 22:00 LgNKami wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance. Since when did terran players 1a with any kind of early attack? Even all ins required stupid micro to work, ESPECIALLY the 1/1/1. I don't really see where your aggression comes from for terran players (unless you are one of those bronze guys that thinks stim is op). Ha, don't even get me started on stim brah. Joking. 1/1/1 just strikes me as something I could start doing today and end up with GM level t vs p in about 2 weeks or something. Try making banshees or something. Whether you get cloak or not, they have to make 2 worthless observers. Toss has to defend multiple locations, so they have to have at least 2 stalkers at each location. And, since you can eventually attack with banshees and the rest of your army, together, toss can never just make a 2 stalker to 1 banshee ratio. They will lose some stalkers in that big attack to other stuff, so they have to make even more stalkers to compensate, so the left over banshees don't just 1 shot everything after the battle. So, basically toss ends up with a lot of units that no one would want to have. How much micro you really need to do against stalkers? Just 1a. Force fields bothering you? Try getting a siege tank and sniping the sentry or something. I just have that feeling like I could really own face with that build and it wouldn't take much skill. It just feels like it takes 20 times more skill and knowledge to stop that build than to execute it. Hey, even if I were wrong, I could just proxy 2 rax every game and be GM, unless you want to tell me that only the super elite boxer like micro players can pull that off. Terran, it's a ridic race in the early game if you want to do an all-in. The mule should have some kinda worship thread or something, where all of the all-iners give their graces to the mule. Lol. This is so wrong that I literally laughed out loud. Before I start to use arguments I note that a terran player saying something similar about protoss like: you can 4 gate blink allin every PvT and get to GM would have been given a warning by now. TL moderators being inconsistent in this regard is what ultimately allows this severely misinformed view of yours to prevail in this community. This makes me sad. Go ahead. Start a new account playing terran. Do 1/1/1 in every TvP. You will be successful in the beginning. You will beat master protosses for sure if your micro and multitask is worth anything. You will get many freewins. Freewins caused by the fact that your opponent either scouted you and didn't react properly or by the fact that your opponent didn't scout you at all, which in both cases is nothing but poor play. Once you start facing protosses who are actually good and are in master league (or whatever) because they actually have game sense, good mechanics and can do proper scouting you will start failing miserably. If your opponent plays blindly assuming you do 1 rax expo into medivac stim shields +1 timing like 95% of all TvPs you can beat him easily. If opponent scouts you and deals properly with your banshees you will likely not be able to micro good enough to beat him. Practice a year or so and you can do it. After 4 weeks .... no way. Oh. and it is the very same thing with proxy 2 rax. If you were right we would see 1/1/1 and proxy 2 rax all the time. There is a reason pro players don't do those builds anymore and that reason is that they are figured out builds that mostly suck. They are brought forward sometimes though, but that is more because of metagaming reasons in a BoX or whatever. The fact that _you_ lose to terrans doing 1/1/1 doesn't mean anything. WIth the proper scout and reaction you will learn that it is now 20x easier to hold than with your old play. Terran is still quite allin though, just later in the game. The only objection I have with your analysis is that you imply that terran are early game kings who can just make marines (and tanks+banshees) and a-move to victory. Terrans have been pigeonholed into doing the same (BIO)-builds every game because of nerfed stim and buffed immortals. Back on topic this matters because Hots originally promised TvP mech. Hots promised 3 new units I could use. What I got was 2 new units. A mine that sucks so much balls compared to the spider mine that it is not even funny and a mech unit which is a transformed hellion and actually a firebat which is a bio unit. It matters because every TvP game in WoL that starts with a 1 rax expand into 3 rax double gas with a bunker at front is seriously hurting e-sports. There is no real variation. There is no excitement. There are only 2 players who loses if the they fuck up and wins if the other one fucks up. It matters because instead of "we've been having a lot of fun with the new infestor in internal tests" David Kim should have had been having fun trying a buffed version of mech in TvP. There has been a beta for 4 months. The have fixed the design of the "new" terran units. They have gone over and modified existing units. And to this moment it didn't strike them that testing tanks that makes full damage to shields could inject some energy into terran play. I can only recomend the ones that feels like this to protest by not buying Hots. I wont.
It might be some hyperbole to what I said, but I don't believe it's the biggest stretch of the imagination. I played Terran in BW and have qualified for WCG's. Terran is a lot easier in SC 2 than BW (mechanics wise), so I'm always kinda laughing when people call Terran hard in SC 2. It's jaw dropping to me.
It took me about 3-4 t vs p games before I was taking games off master players, playing standard or using marauder expand. I still would lose to lower league players but master level players never seemed harder than any other league. I just think t vs p is really easy in WoL. Maybe it's hard against templar/colossi. The thing is it's hard to reach the ultimate composition in p vs t in WoL. In WoL, you have a choice to play late game or not. NA ladder is not pro play. People are not going to be defending 1/1/1 like you see on "tv." It's a lot easier to execute than to defend. I just don't think there's much reason to not be able to use that at a GM level. It's just my feeling. Shoot me for it you want.
O yeah, I still couldn't beat anyone in t vs z. I find that quite telling. T vs Z is ridiculous in this game and I'm a huge fan of anyone that is excelling at that. I only played it like 7 times or something, but it was enough...
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On January 02 2013 19:29 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 19:04 Crypdos wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance. You are a pretty funny guy. Cmon, U can't be serious? He must be joking. HotS right now looks really lazy and on top of that the game is virtually the same if you play Terran. Most people have already left so the clan addition is like providing cushioned seats at a movie theater when the current seats are all empty and the movies they are showing are the same as last year. The singleplayer is completely irrelevant because the story is so shit in SC2 nobody cares anymore, buying a game like starcraft for the singleplayer is like buying battlefield for the campaign.
Umm...no?
And yes HoTS is totally worth it. I enjoy the beta way more than I enjoy WoL. I can't tell you if thats just because of the new dynamic with the introduction of the new units, but its got me hooked so its doing something right.
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On January 03 2013 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 04:54 a176 wrote:On January 03 2013 04:24 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 03:52 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 02:28 Scrubwave wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. Ouch. Can't be THAT bad. Buying hots after what they turned WOL into and the diablo 3 fiasco? No thanks. What Diablo 3 fiasco? You mean the PC only game that sold well over 8 million copies world wide? One of the highest selling PC games in years. The 5th most searched for term in 2012 as rated by Google. The game where they banned thousands of accounts for using bots just last month. People need to stop drinking their own Cool-Aid. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii/user-reviewsThis fiasco, maybe you haven't heard of it. You just linked me to the user reviews on metacritic to prove D3 was a bad game? Metacritic, where you can make unlimited accounts are can review any game without even proving that you played it all the way through and provide such great information as “Not as good as Diablo 2: Score of 0”. The same place there amazing games like Bastion and Mark of the Ninja get 1s and 2s from idiots and are rated 8.0 by users over all. Your evidence is overwhelming. So what is your point? That the score for Bastion is entirely legit but D3 isn't? Bastion has a rating of 9.6 from critical reviews and Mark of the Ninja has a similar score, yet don’t peek above 8.0 from users. The point is the user reviews are next to worthless and the more popular the game, more likely people are going to troll the un-moderated user reviews section. It is like looking at YouTube comments to see if a video is any good. What makes you think that the score "critics" give is more legit than the scores users give?
Why do I take of word of people like Jeff Gerstmann, Brad Shoemaker, the staff at Joystiq, GameSpot, IGN and any other site that employees professional reviewers over the untamed masses of the internet? I don’t know, maybe because I can review their previous writings and reviews, see what their opinion are on specific issues. Or that they are professional writers that I have followed for years and know their reviews closely reflect the actual quality of a game. Why would I ever take the feedback of the untamed, unknown masses of the internet over that of professional people that I can review their previous works?
Here is the real question: Why would you fall back on the middle school argument of “Why should I listen to critics anyways? What makes them special?” Why can you not accept that the evidence you provided that Diablo 3 was bad is shitty and flawed in a number of ways?
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On January 03 2013 05:34 Scrubwave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 04:54 a176 wrote:On January 03 2013 04:24 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 03:52 Scrubwave wrote:On January 03 2013 02:52 Plansix wrote:On January 03 2013 02:28 Scrubwave wrote:On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. Ouch. Can't be THAT bad. Buying hots after what they turned WOL into and the diablo 3 fiasco? No thanks. What Diablo 3 fiasco? You mean the PC only game that sold well over 8 million copies world wide? One of the highest selling PC games in years. The 5th most searched for term in 2012 as rated by Google. The game where they banned thousands of accounts for using bots just last month. People need to stop drinking their own Cool-Aid. http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii/user-reviewsThis fiasco, maybe you haven't heard of it. You just linked me to the user reviews on metacritic to prove D3 was a bad game? Metacritic, where you can make unlimited accounts are can review any game without even proving that you played it all the way through and provide such great information as “Not as good as Diablo 2: Score of 0”. The same place there amazing games like Bastion and Mark of the Ninja get 1s and 2s from idiots and are rated 8.0 by users over all. Your evidence is overwhelming. So what is your point? That the score for Bastion is entirely legit but D3 isn't? Bastion has a rating of 9.6 from critical reviews and Mark of the Ninja has a similar score, yet don’t peek above 8.0 from users. The point is the user reviews are next to worthless and the more popular the game, more likely people are going to troll the un-moderated user reviews section. It is like looking at YouTube comments to see if a video is any good. What makes you think that the score "critics" give is more legit than the scores users give?
Read the user reviews and see whether you can extract any useful information from them, especially the negative ones. One guy gave DIII a 0 and he started his review "I've played this game 250+ hours." Most of the user reviews, as pointed out, were given because there were problems, not with the gameplay, but with logging in shortly after launch. ME3 was IMO (and in the opinion of many others) a beautifully executed game with a turd of an ending. It was 99% brilliant and 1% fail. Yet almost 1/2 the reviews gave it a 0-3. If users applied their standards for reviewing games to their own lives and those of their friends and families, they would (i) probably disown their families, (ii) weep constantly because of what collosal failures they and everyone they know are and (iii) commit suicide. To pull a number out of my ass -- probably around 60% of video game players are stupid, lazy and angry. That group of people is not a good source of information. Someone who is at least trying to be a bit impartial and who has experience playing lots of video games is likely a better source of information.
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Professional reviewers will usually give you an idea of the funding behind the game, saying that I would still take the word of a reviewer over a single random review.
But if there are masses of random people rating the game low there is a reason for that and I'm inclined to believe them more than reviewer scores, partly because they get more time to play the game than professional reviewers.
Diablo 3 would be a prime example of this.
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is awesome32244 Posts
On January 03 2013 05:37 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2013 05:08 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 03 2013 03:06 SuperYo1000 wrote:On January 03 2013 02:51 IntoTheWow wrote: After Diablo 3 and WoL im not blindly buying Blizzard games anymore. really? thats cool I guess but seriously what company puts out quality games anymore. Im pretty sure we are just Blizzard spoiled. "If the game isnt brilliant then its only worth my time to shit on" Seems to be the mentality of kids today. In truth, its blizzards fault, they created this community monster Or you can go play the recycled brainless COD, Madden, Halo series. Or I can choose not to make extreme examples and go play good games by other companies, or even indie developers. :/ your free to do whatever you want. My point is that players today are never satisfied. I would like to challenge anyone to find a RTS mulitplayer game thats better then WOL mulitiplayer. In truth, nothing comes close
Fair enought, different people, different standards.
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HoTS brings some undeniably interisting stuffs on the table. Medivac reactor boost, the defensive ability of the nexus, tempest, reaper healing, the viper ... For that reason I will probably buy it, even though I don't play much Starcraft anymore.
But to me, it definitely doesn't outweigh the accumulation of Blizzard non-sensical balance and gameplay decisions which drove late WoL into being more imbalanced and more boring than early WoL. The current Zerg dominance is actually statistically worse than the Korean Terran dominance there was during late beta early release.
Also, some stuff are not imbalanced but boring and/or non-sensical. It's hard to distinguish Blizzard incompetence from Blizzard politics on this issue, but I believe the 2 are not entirely dissociated. Fact of the matter is, there never was one single ambitious gameplay change happening during WoL. Not a single one. Blizzard politics have been to twist the number, replace instrinsic abilities by upgrades, in other words always be as short-sighted as possible and never ever conceptually change anything, nor add anything before the expansions. One of the most glaring example is the warpgate upgrade whose research time got multiplied by 3 to stop being imbalanced. It's one of the most boring and useless upgrade which everybody gets asap and which turns the protoss "portals" into nothing more than redundant obsolete buildings after 3 mins in every single game. Take a step back... does that make sense ?
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On January 03 2013 06:10 zbedlam wrote: Professional reviewers will usually give you an idea of the funding behind the game, saying that I would still take the word of a reviewer over a single random review.
But if there are masses of random people rating the game low there is a reason for that and I'm inclined to believe them more than reviewer scores, partly because they get more time to play the game than professional reviewers.
Diablo 3 would be a prime example of this. To be fair Diablo was excellent on the first playthrough, which is all that reviewers base their reviews on and they were right to assign the game a high score. Just like how HotS will get a good score because the campaign will be casual friendly, fun and high quality, and the 10-20 MP games the reviewer played were fun too.
That's what 25 hours of entertainment for whatever price (50ish euros I guess) and the reviewers will be right assigning a high score for HotS too. Hardcore players, like in D3, SC2, or WoW, look at different things than the general public and its possible for them to complain about something reviewers would simply never look at.
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