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On April 17 2013 05:13 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 05:07 Jerubaal wrote: It's strange to compare the MVP with CotY. Many people, and I suspect many voters, think this should be given to the best player in the league, regardless of performance that year. I suspect that the Heat would win more games without Lebron than OKC would win without Durant and Durant personally has had an individually great year so that gives him a strong case for MVP, but almost all will still call Lebron the best player. CotY, in contrast, almost always seems to be given to a feel good story. For one, 'coaching ability' is not as variable or as measurable as player skill. That might lead to PJ and Pop splitting the last 15 CotY awards and that's not so fun. I think that's flawed logic though. That says more about the rest of the team than the player itself, but why can't a player be most valuable on an equally strong team? A more appropriate hypothetical would be what if Durant played on the Heat/Lebron on the Thunder, and compare the Durant-Heat with the Lebron-Heat and the Lebron-Thunder with the Durant-Thunder. The fact that the Heat have a great bench and DWade and Bosh doesn't mean that Lebron isn't still the best player in basketball right now.
Of course my main point is that there are no clear guidelines for MVP, but I'm not comfortable making this "the best player" the sole criterion for MVP. It seems to detract from the season's performance and makes MVP a term of office. If a voter seriously thought that Karl Malone had had a better year than Jordan, should he have said "but Jordan's better" and given it to him? There were some people who thought that Kobe should have won the MVP for like 4 years in a row based on him being "the best player". If Lebron loafed through a season but still appeared fully capable would you want him to still get the MVP?
BTW, if anyone is a WikiEditor or knows one, some asshole changed Lebron's name to Fahim Ali on the MVP page.
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United States22883 Posts
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Maybe it's just for the one game, lol.
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On April 17 2013 05:35 Jerubaal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2013 05:13 DystopiaX wrote:On April 17 2013 05:07 Jerubaal wrote: It's strange to compare the MVP with CotY. Many people, and I suspect many voters, think this should be given to the best player in the league, regardless of performance that year. I suspect that the Heat would win more games without Lebron than OKC would win without Durant and Durant personally has had an individually great year so that gives him a strong case for MVP, but almost all will still call Lebron the best player. CotY, in contrast, almost always seems to be given to a feel good story. For one, 'coaching ability' is not as variable or as measurable as player skill. That might lead to PJ and Pop splitting the last 15 CotY awards and that's not so fun. I think that's flawed logic though. That says more about the rest of the team than the player itself, but why can't a player be most valuable on an equally strong team? A more appropriate hypothetical would be what if Durant played on the Heat/Lebron on the Thunder, and compare the Durant-Heat with the Lebron-Heat and the Lebron-Thunder with the Durant-Thunder. The fact that the Heat have a great bench and DWade and Bosh doesn't mean that Lebron isn't still the best player in basketball right now. Of course my main point is that there are no clear guidelines for MVP, but I'm not comfortable making this "the best player" the sole criterion for MVP. It seems to detract from the season's performance and makes MVP a term of office. If a voter seriously thought that Karl Malone had had a better year than Jordan, should he have said "but Jordan's better" and given it to him? There were some people who thought that Kobe should have won the MVP for like 4 years in a row based on him being "the best player". If Lebron loafed through a season but still appeared fully capable would you want him to still get the MVP? BTW, if anyone is a WikiEditor or knows one, some asshole changed Lebron's name to Fahim Ali on the MVP page. I'm not sure I'm understanding you argument, but if you're talking about single-season vs career I'd still say that Lebron is having a better season than Durant.
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Well, that's a perfectly valid opinion, but I still think that it is often impossible to disentangle the two. If I were going to make a case for Durant, and this is hypothetical, I would ask if you were more persuaded by Lebron's flashes of brilliance than by comparing their average performance.
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United States22883 Posts
On April 17 2013 05:41 Jerubaal wrote: Maybe it's just for the one game, lol. Well, he obviously doesn't have much left but he could still be a dangerous role player, even if he's just playing 10 or 15 minutes. He spent this season in China so he's probably still in shape. I dunno, for your last roster spot it seems like a brilliant move. Zero downside, and occasionally he can still get 10/5/5.
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Maybe he's supposed to replace Bonner. ;O
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Lebron is better at both IMO. While durants 50/40/90 is impressive I think that on an average night lebrons leadership, bball iq, passing, and defense are far superior than durants. I think the only aspect of durants game i can conclusively say is better than lebrons is his jump shooting.
Would tmac be eligible for the playoffs?
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On April 17 2013 05:56 DystopiaX wrote: Lebron is better at both IMO. While durants 50/40/90 is impressive I think that on an average night lebrons leadership, bball iq, passing, and defense are far superior than durants. I think the only aspect of durants game i can conclusively say is better than lebrons is his jump shooting.
Would tmac be eligible for the playoffs?
This gives me the strong suspicion that the notion of "best player" is the overriding criterion in your judgement. Your conception of these things isn't likely to change over a season or maybe years. Durant's actual performance is essentially irrelevant.
TMac? I think so. I don't know why he wouldn't be.
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Not true at all. Maybe leadership is a bit unquantifiable but I think that this season, as in seasons past, he's done a good job mentoring the young'ns on the team, saying all the right things (as far as those of us with limited access can tell), keeping the team focused despite their history-making winning streak, etc. Just because he's been known for it over the past couple seasons doesn't mean that it suddenly isn't a big reason why I can't consider him the best this year.
As for bball IQ, if you watch Heat games the way Lebron plays, especially on Offense, to me shows that he understands the game of basketball much better than Durant. It partially factors into passing as well but Lebron this year, more than other years, understands where he should be under their offensive system, if the weakside shooter is going to be open, how to skip a pass to that man, etc. While Durant could very well have these qualities I think that he hasn't shown it. Maybe because he doesn't understand the game in that way, or maybe because the way Brooks' offense works doesn't allow him to do as much under that offensive system than Lebron, but it's still there.
And even if those factors were left out of the conversation it doesn't change the fact that I still think that Lebron is better on both sides of the ball than Durant, and that's not just his legacy. Breaking it down, I think that Lebron has been able to score the ball more efficiently than Durant, pass better than him, play defense better than him, etc.
Bottom line is I don't think you can make presumptions about how I perceive certain players, especially since you've offered no evidence or insight of your own.
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On April 17 2013 05:07 Jerubaal wrote: It's strange to compare the MVP with CotY. Many people, and I suspect many voters, think this should be given to the best player in the league, regardless of performance that year. I suspect that the Heat would win more games without Lebron than OKC would win without Durant and Durant personally has had an individually great year so that gives him a strong case for MVP, but almost all will still call Lebron the best player. CotY, in contrast, almost always seems to be given to a feel good story. For one, 'coaching ability' is not as variable or as measurable as player skill. That might lead to PJ and Pop splitting the last 15 CotY awards and that's not so fun.
There is no way Durant should win MVP after the Heat's monstrous 27-game winning streak. Lebron was just too dominant during that streak for somebody else to win MVP. The Heat are now 5 games ahead of the Thunder for best record overall. Even if the best player in the league coasted a little, it's very difficult to deny him the MVP if his team ends up with the best record in the league. As a subjective award, there's going to be a balancing act between value, potential and performance. Being the best player should carry a lot of weight. Team performance should carry a lot of weight. Value, not so much. Having better teammates shouldn't detract from an excellent performance.
There's a reason the CotY is one of the most meaningless awards. It is frequently given to coaches on mediocre to good teams that have surpassed media expectations. That's the danger in being biased towards giving an award to somebody who had to carry a weak roster. Many of the winners exceeded expectations by going all in on the regular season, playing their starters heavy minutes and surprising opponents by playing a style that leaves nothing in the tank when the playoffs roll around. Once expectations for the surprise team turn into doing something in the playoffs, those coaches get exposed as mediocre coaches really quickly. It is no wonder that there was a stretch in the 2000s where CotY winners get fired a few seasons after winning the award.
Jackson and Popovich should definitely have had more CotY wins than they have had. It's pretty pathetic that Pops is only getting his due now that his roster is no longer good enough to be a championship favorite.
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If we talking sacrifices I think bosh made the most...went from Allstar talks to people talking about how he's overrated because he took a backseat to the other two...but take them out of a game and he can still go 20-15.
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Yea he doesn't get enough credit either. Without him Miami can't win a title and I think his game really makes them go.
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so if the lakers win tonight... not only to they clinch playoffs, but they surpass HOUSTON in the #7 seed spot, and end up playing san antonio in round 1 of the play offs. tonight is literally a must win for the lakers O_o.
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IMO the lakers d is still too bad for it to matter either way.
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sure, but we stand a better chance against spurs than we do against OKC. Just boils down to being able to make a run or not and not just going out 0-4
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I'd be down to see houston in 8th spot, just for the OKC vs Houston round 1. But, at the cost of having Lakers in 7th place? uhhhhhhhhh.
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Houston got a much better chance vs the Spurs though, I'd rather have them advance.
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On April 17 2013 08:28 DystopiaX wrote: Houston got a much better chance vs the Spurs though, I'd rather have them advance. i like all 3 teams, sad for the spurs, i hope parker isnt more injured than it seems
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