On March 01 2015 02:55 xuanzue wrote: so, the PARNAS has 1 seat of 3787. and here people really like to sell like this guy was a real threat to Putin.
So name me 3 most influentional oppositional leaders in Russia for the 27.02.2015
Gary Kasparov(1), and his twitter account.
and Gennady Zyuganov(2) and any other guy (3)from the communist party. I'm pretty sure the 2nd political force in Russia is the communist party and they are more a real threat against Putin.
I'm sorry, but the communist party is not real opposition. It's one of the many (some more, some less) fake, so-called "systematical opposition" parties, that are nothing but joke pretend-opposition parties. Both their leaders' and Kasparov's influence is nowadays much lower than either that of Navalny or Nemtsov.
Nemtsov's Republican Party of Russia: Seats in the State Duma 0 / 450 Seats in the Regional Parliaments 1 / 3,787
More influential than the 92 Seats in the State Duma Communist Party? Really?
I think they meant that the communist party is controlled opposition.
I don't know, people seem to think that just because a party is in the opposition they have to hate and undermine the ruling government. Not saying 'Putin is the devil' doesn't make you controlled opposition. Thats silly.
On March 01 2015 05:34 TwilightRain wrote: If you believe that party members in the parlament actually had any real influence on core politics in Russia for the last 8-12 years, you are sorely mistaken.
They have more influence than random people on the street that nobody voted for.
If you believe that influencing public perception and actions is an utterly irrelevant kind of influence, then yes, by your logic any single member of that sad circus that is the state duma has more influence than the afformentioned two.
Influencing public perception? I highly doubt people took them that seriously. If one of them were to say 'government is corrupt' people would nod their head or something but obviously no one took them seriously enough to vote for them. These are extremely low numbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Russian_legislative_election_protests At peaks there were 100,000+ people in a single place in Moscow alone, that's 0,1% of the whole population of Russia right there. After the recent events and economic hardships right now I find it hard to believe that oppositionally minded people in Russia started to like Putin more. After the protests failed people kind of lost hope, and after the recent events they are also scared. So I dont expect mass protests any time soon, but saying there are no people who support real opposition is totally ignorant.
On March 01 2015 02:55 xuanzue wrote: so, the PARNAS has 1 seat of 3787. and here people really like to sell like this guy was a real threat to Putin.
So name me 3 most influentional oppositional leaders in Russia for the 27.02.2015
Gary Kasparov(1), and his twitter account.
and Gennady Zyuganov(2) and any other guy (3)from the communist party. I'm pretty sure the 2nd political force in Russia is the communist party and they are more a real threat against Putin.
I'm sorry, but the communist party is not real opposition. It's one of the many (some more, some less) fake, so-called "systematical opposition" parties, that are nothing but joke pretend-opposition parties. Both their leaders' and Kasparov's influence is nowadays much lower than either that of Navalny or Nemtsov.
Nemtsov's Republican Party of Russia: Seats in the State Duma 0 / 450 Seats in the Regional Parliaments 1 / 3,787
More influential than the 92 Seats in the State Duma Communist Party? Really?
I think they meant that the communist party is controlled opposition.
I don't know, people seem to think that just because a party is in the opposition they have to hate and undermine the ruling government. Not saying 'Putin is the devil' doesn't make you controlled opposition. Thats silly.
On March 01 2015 05:34 TwilightRain wrote: If you believe that party members in the parlament actually had any real influence on core politics in Russia for the last 8-12 years, you are sorely mistaken.
They have more influence than random people on the street that nobody voted for.
If you believe that influencing public perception and actions is an utterly irrelevant kind of influence, then yes, by your logic any single member of that sad circus that is the state duma has more influence than the afformentioned two.
Influencing public perception? I highly doubt people took them that seriously. If one of them were to say 'government is corrupt' people would nod their head or something but obviously no one took them seriously enough to vote for them. These are extremely low numbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Russian_legislative_election_protests At peaks there were 100,000+ people in a single place in Moscow alone, that's 0,1% of the whole population of Russia right there. After the recent events and economic hardships right now I find it hard to believe that oppositionally minded people in Russia started to like Putin more. After the protests failed people kind of lost hope, and after the recent events they are also scared. So I dont expect mass protests any time soon, but saying there are no people who support real opposition is totally ignorant.
I don't have a nice way of showing this, but I do get the impression that people were happier with Putin in 2014 than in the prior years. There were less protests, and whatever the ratings showed, they jumped a whole lot. This probably represents some kind of a popularity increase. Also, with the destruction of free speech wrought in the beginning of 2014, there must have been a consolidation of public opinion.
So name me 3 most influentional oppositional leaders in Russia for the 27.02.2015
Gary Kasparov(1), and his twitter account.
and Gennady Zyuganov(2) and any other guy (3)from the communist party. I'm pretty sure the 2nd political force in Russia is the communist party and they are more a real threat against Putin.
I'm sorry, but the communist party is not real opposition. It's one of the many (some more, some less) fake, so-called "systematical opposition" parties, that are nothing but joke pretend-opposition parties. Both their leaders' and Kasparov's influence is nowadays much lower than either that of Navalny or Nemtsov.
Nemtsov's Republican Party of Russia: Seats in the State Duma 0 / 450 Seats in the Regional Parliaments 1 / 3,787
More influential than the 92 Seats in the State Duma Communist Party? Really?
I think they meant that the communist party is controlled opposition.
I don't know, people seem to think that just because a party is in the opposition they have to hate and undermine the ruling government. Not saying 'Putin is the devil' doesn't make you controlled opposition. Thats silly.
On March 01 2015 05:34 TwilightRain wrote: If you believe that party members in the parlament actually had any real influence on core politics in Russia for the last 8-12 years, you are sorely mistaken.
They have more influence than random people on the street that nobody voted for.
If you believe that influencing public perception and actions is an utterly irrelevant kind of influence, then yes, by your logic any single member of that sad circus that is the state duma has more influence than the afformentioned two.
Influencing public perception? I highly doubt people took them that seriously. If one of them were to say 'government is corrupt' people would nod their head or something but obviously no one took them seriously enough to vote for them. These are extremely low numbers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Russian_legislative_election_protests At peaks there were 100,000+ people in a single place in Moscow alone, that's 0,1% of the whole population of Russia right there. After the recent events and economic hardships right now I find it hard to believe that oppositionally minded people in Russia started to like Putin more. After the protests failed people kind of lost hope, and after the recent events they are also scared. So I dont expect mass protests any time soon, but saying there are no people who support real opposition is totally ignorant.
I don't have a nice way of showing this, but I do get the impression that people were happier with Putin in 2014 than in the prior years. There were less protests, and whatever the ratings showed, they jumped a whole lot. This probably represents some kind of a popularity increase. Also, with the destruction of free speech wrought in the beginning of 2014, there must have been a consolidation of public opinion.
Well first of all after Euromaidan the legislation went a long way to make people think twice before protesting, including increased criminal penalty and substantial financial fines. Security forces were also watching over every gathering and interfering on quite a lot of occasions not allowing the protests to develop. And there is also the 85% approval rating making it pretty pointless to protest right now.
I think the year 2014 brought a much larger polarity of views towards Putin in Russia. Clearly he won over quite a few people who were neutral, or who started to like him more, but people who viewed his methods in the negative light to begin with got their views reinforced.
Some people in the thread have already floated the idea that Putin probably didn't order the killing, but has created the conditions that led to it. There's a Guardian piece considering the same idea:
At a recent launch of the Anti-Maidan movement in Russia, the leader of a biker gang, known as “the Surgeon”, who has been photographed many times with Putin, said foreign powers were sharpening their teeth to attack Russia. The Anti-Maidan movement would ensure that they could not do so, with violence if necessary. Another name for the movement was “death to faggots”, said the Surgeon.
Nemtsov frequently appeared on lists of “traitors” published online by extremist groups, and given that many radical Russian nationalists have been fighting a war in east Ukraine for the past six months, there have long been fears that the bloodshed could at some point move to the streets of Moscow.
The well-organised hit, in one of the most closely watched parts of Moscow, of a man who was undoubtedly under state surveillance just two days before a major opposition march, does not smack of an amateur job. Assuming a jealous lover or angry fellow liberal would not be able to organise a drive-by shooting in the shadows of the Kremlin towers, the remaining options are disturbing.
If, as Peskov says, it was senseless for the Kremlin to kill someone who posed very little threat, that leaves another option that is perhaps even more terrifying: that the campaign of hate that has erupted over the past year is spiralling out of the control of those who manufactured it.
“Actually it would be in some way less worrying if Putin had ordered Nemtsov’s killing,” wrote Ksenia Sobchak, a socialite turned journalist and opposition activist. “It would be an awful system, but at least a system, a manageable system. But I feel, unfortunately, this is not the case. There is no Putin who gave a command to kill. But there is a Putin who has built an appalling terminator, and he has lost control of it.”
Putin’s spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said the president would take the investigation into Nemtsov’s death under “personal control”, and that he believed the killing to be a provocation.
I'm glad Putin will personally take control of the investigation, because it's the only way OJ will catch the real killer.
On March 01 2015 08:20 Ghanburighan wrote: A new video potentially showing the killing from a distant security camera. If anyone can make sense what's going on here, I'd love to read it.
well, the whole issue is far too troubling for putin... Im very sure that he didnt order the murder by himself (or via a familiar). but he and his nationalistic propaganda are the reason for a climate in russia in which opposition members are considered outlawed.
I can only see two scenarios here: some radical, nationalistic delusioned guys murdered him because they thought they'd do mother russia a favor by doing so; or he was involved in shady business and was killed by some russian mafia business contacts for whatever reason.
anyway, I dont feel pity for the shitstorm that western media raise against putin now. during the last 15 months, there has just been too much russian propaganda bullshit. I mean... how come we blame poor putin for the fact that thousands of russian soldiers wanted to spend their holiday on the crimea and in eastern ukraine? is it putins fault that they bought uniforms and professional weapons in civil gunshops to prepare for their holiday?
after a civil plane was shot down over separatist controlled territory, all they had to say was that "this was an intentional provocation". is it really surprising that, after incidents like those, many bullshit radars trigger upon hearing that russian officials call the murder of a prominent oppositionist "a political provocation"?
I certainly wont deny that western media hasnt been neutral since the get go, that it actually was full of propaganda as well. but it was nowhere near as ridiculous and crude as the russian propaganda. it's certainly their fault if nobody believes them anymore.
anyways, I'll stop my rant right here, RIP Boris Nemtsov.
On March 01 2015 08:20 Ghanburighan wrote: A new video potentially showing the killing from a distant security camera. If anyone can make sense what's going on here, I'd love to read it.
Knowing nothing about the actual area it looks like a typical 'secret meeting' unless there is some other reason for him to have been there like that?
My guess, he thought he was meeting someone he could trust and wasn't. No idea about the specifics though so I could be very wrong. But that's also a typical way to kill people like that. They would never generally go somewhere with their guard down or alone unless they were meeting with someone they thought they could trust or was a double agent type or something along those lines.
On March 01 2015 08:02 Ghanburighan wrote: Some people in the thread have already floated the idea that Putin probably didn't order the killing, but has created the conditions that led to it. There's a Guardian piece considering the same idea:
At a recent launch of the Anti-Maidan movement in Russia, the leader of a biker gang, known as “the Surgeon”, who has been photographed many times with Putin, said foreign powers were sharpening their teeth to attack Russia. The Anti-Maidan movement would ensure that they could not do so, with violence if necessary. Another name for the movement was “death to faggots”, said the Surgeon.
Nemtsov frequently appeared on lists of “traitors” published online by extremist groups, and given that many radical Russian nationalists have been fighting a war in east Ukraine for the past six months, there have long been fears that the bloodshed could at some point move to the streets of Moscow.
The well-organised hit, in one of the most closely watched parts of Moscow, of a man who was undoubtedly under state surveillance just two days before a major opposition march, does not smack of an amateur job. Assuming a jealous lover or angry fellow liberal would not be able to organise a drive-by shooting in the shadows of the Kremlin towers, the remaining options are disturbing.
If, as Peskov says, it was senseless for the Kremlin to kill someone who posed very little threat, that leaves another option that is perhaps even more terrifying: that the campaign of hate that has erupted over the past year is spiralling out of the control of those who manufactured it.
“Actually it would be in some way less worrying if Putin had ordered Nemtsov’s killing,” wrote Ksenia Sobchak, a socialite turned journalist and opposition activist. “It would be an awful system, but at least a system, a manageable system. But I feel, unfortunately, this is not the case. There is no Putin who gave a command to kill. But there is a Putin who has built an appalling terminator, and he has lost control of it.”
Edit: P.S. Cheerio, yeah, that sounds about right.
I've spoken to enough Moscovians to know that this is probably true, and Ksenia Sobchak is absolutely right that this is scarier than a simple political-assassination. It is crazy nationalism. A lot of Moscovians aren't going to be bothered by this assassination one bit. They accept their democracy isn't real, but don't care. Putin is their leader, and they respect that more than anything.
You can be speaking to a Moscovian who seems as gentle and not-a-war-monger as can be, and be shocked by the things that come out of their mouth. Anti-semitism, crazy-level nationalism, crazy ethnic-pride, all based on skewed history, coming from someone who would otherwise be seen by most as a nice, congenial person.
The world we live in, we take for granted based on the information we're given. We don't see it, we don't know it, we have to accept that some things are what we're told.
Russia, particularly Moscow, lives in a somewhat different world than the "West" does. They have a different history, different approach to ethnicity. It's not North Korea-level. But it's bad enough that I can see this assassination being a citizen-led incident.
On March 01 2015 08:20 Ghanburighan wrote: A new video potentially showing the killing from a distant security camera. If anyone can make sense what's going on here, I'd love to read it.
What I could figure. 2 people were walking to the left from right. So no, it doesn't look like a secret meeting. They were slowly being caught up by the snow removing machine. When the machine was covering them from the road and a camera the killing took place at around 23:30:15. Few seconds later the killer runs to the road and gets in the car that stops waiting for him. After that it's basically random cars and people stopping and leaving just seconds later. Like "do you need help?", "oh, he is already dead? Ok then, I'll be on my way". Kind of weird. I guess some of those were KGB people who were supposed to follow Nemtsov since it was just a day from the important opposition march. 23:36 two people come by and stay for some time, but at 23:37:25 they suddenly run away, my best guess is that those are the KGB people. When police arrives at 23:42 the two people who supposedly run away come back.
No one can imagine what I'm feeling in my psyche. Russia lost his great king and next real candidate into presidents. Why he? So cruel, bad and unnecessary way to die. RIP... I wanted to say some more things but I'm aware of being polite inaccurate and thus getting banned.
On March 01 2015 22:09 outscar wrote: No one can imagine what I'm feeling in my psyche. Russia lost his great king and next real candidate into presidents. Why he? So cruel, bad and unnecessary way to die. RIP... I wanted to say some more things but I'm aware of being polite inaccurate and thus getting banned.
My heart is bleeding after this nightmare. Boris Efimovich Nemcov was only one of the powerful, honest, fair, manful and not coward people in the world who could bring Russia into new shining future. He was criticizing Putin's politic actions everytime from start and told his mother at phone before 20 days from his death that Putin can kill him. Bygones will never be bygones. Let the God judge killers.
On March 01 2015 08:02 Ghanburighan wrote: Some people in the thread have already floated the idea that Putin probably didn't order the killing, but has created the conditions that led to it. There's a Guardian piece considering the same idea:
At a recent launch of the Anti-Maidan movement in Russia, the leader of a biker gang, known as “the Surgeon”, who has been photographed many times with Putin, said foreign powers were sharpening their teeth to attack Russia. The Anti-Maidan movement would ensure that they could not do so, with violence if necessary. Another name for the movement was “death to faggots”, said the Surgeon.
Nemtsov frequently appeared on lists of “traitors” published online by extremist groups, and given that many radical Russian nationalists have been fighting a war in east Ukraine for the past six months, there have long been fears that the bloodshed could at some point move to the streets of Moscow.
The well-organised hit, in one of the most closely watched parts of Moscow, of a man who was undoubtedly under state surveillance just two days before a major opposition march, does not smack of an amateur job. Assuming a jealous lover or angry fellow liberal would not be able to organise a drive-by shooting in the shadows of the Kremlin towers, the remaining options are disturbing.
If, as Peskov says, it was senseless for the Kremlin to kill someone who posed very little threat, that leaves another option that is perhaps even more terrifying: that the campaign of hate that has erupted over the past year is spiralling out of the control of those who manufactured it.
“Actually it would be in some way less worrying if Putin had ordered Nemtsov’s killing,” wrote Ksenia Sobchak, a socialite turned journalist and opposition activist. “It would be an awful system, but at least a system, a manageable system. But I feel, unfortunately, this is not the case. There is no Putin who gave a command to kill. But there is a Putin who has built an appalling terminator, and he has lost control of it.”
Edit: P.S. Cheerio, yeah, that sounds about right.
I've spoken to enough Moscovians to know that this is probably true, and Ksenia Sobchak is absolutely right that this is scarier than a simple political-assassination. It is crazy nationalism. A lot of Moscovians aren't going to be bothered by this assassination one bit. They accept their democracy isn't real, but don't care. Putin is their leader, and they respect that more than anything.
You can be speaking to a Moscovian who seems as gentle and not-a-war-monger as can be, and be shocked by the things that come out of their mouth. Anti-semitism, crazy-level nationalism, crazy ethnic-pride, all based on skewed history, coming from someone who would otherwise be seen by most as a nice, congenial person.
The world we live in, we take for granted based on the information we're given. We don't see it, we don't know it, we have to accept that some things are what we're told.
Russia, particularly Moscow, lives in a somewhat different world than the "West" does. They have a different history, different approach to ethnicity. It's not North Korea-level. But it's bad enough that I can see this assassination being a citizen-led incident.
Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords comes to mind.
From what I know, Moscow people are more well educated and liberal-minded than the rest of Russia. There were big local elections last September and from what I heard not a single influential opposition candidate was allowed to participate. They just don't want to take any risks since the sympathies can turn out to be very wrong for the government. I think you should expect even more nationalism from somebody who is Russian, but not from Moscow.
On February 28 2015 17:45 Jetaap wrote: At this point I'm starting to think that the biggest threat for Europe is not ISIS, but Russia and putin going absolutely crazy ...
you better believe all those west media rumors.
the western powers are just as much of a thread to the world as russia is.
You understand that you don't need to believe in anything? You have access to all the information in the world, you can use your intellect and ability to process data to actually come to your own conclusions. And while we are at it feel free to elaborate how does, lets say, Europe/NATO recent behavior competes with Russia's recent actions. Don't forget to include all shootings and arrests of independent journalists and activists, don't forget to mention all paramilitary states that NATO installed in Eastern Europe and feel especially free to elaborate on civilian planes shootings by drunk and badly trained local militia sponsored by CIA. Cause if you don't have those i will sadly have to assume that you just made a shitpost.
"In Putin's atmosphere of hatred & violence, abroad & in Russia, bloodshed is the prerequisite to show loyalty, that you are on the team" quote from Kasparow twitter.
One important message is that stability in Russia until recently was reached via economic growth, now it's done via mobilization of the population against enemies.