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Oh haha, I misread a bit. Thanks for pointing it out, but technically, canata's wins were last month. ^^
Also, my point still stands, to call their wins from bunker rushes is completely oversimplifying and not even true. Canata vs Jaedong game 1 was the best vulture micro of all time. Game 1, fantasy vs jaedong was way more than a mere bunker rush (you can't even qualify a bunker that late as a rush), it was like a 30 minute game -_-
Also, from what I recall, I think that the commentators said it was a 8rax/8supply for a bsb. I didn't see the scv count so I wouldn't swear by this though.
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On August 09 2009 09:01 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards. I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead.
Is this referring to the Midas period of TvZ, or something farther in the past? Just curious.
And as for AKS's comment, I think the builds used by Canata and Fantasy recently can't be classified as cheese since even if they fail they do serious economic damage at the cost of maybe two or three cut SCVs. You can compare them to the use of single proxy gates in PvT and PvP, which operate under the same principle. 8rax/vulture/wraith and this 9/9/11 (Jung Laden indeed) build Carnac brings up are just aggressive openings that punish Zerg for not responding perfectly to them. They're unfair (which is to be expected, given how T > Z > P > T), but they're not cheese. (IMO the 2fac is far more of a cheese, but we simply don't call it that because it's such a badass build.) We're gonna have to make up a new pejorative term for these builds, like Cheetos or something.
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On August 09 2009 09:08 Avidkeystamper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 09:01 Carnac wrote:On August 09 2009 06:03 Avidkeystamper wrote: I would say that 8 rax isn't cheese, but a bunker rush is. And since you almost ALWAYS bunker rush with an 8 rax...well. I mean 9 pool isn't considered cheese in ZvT because you don't massling and pull drones all the time afterwards. I'd just like to mention that Bunker Rush used to be almost the standard In TvZ for quite a while. People would open 1 Rax into CC, while pressuring Z with a Bunker. It wasn't designed to outright win the game with it, Terran didn't even have to really kill anything, economy wise the fact alone that Z had to pull at least half his Drones to defend made it more than worth it (and if he didn't...). Zerg players got so good at killing the Marines with pulled Drones that the popularity of it faded again. But still, it doesn't really cost the Terran all that much and it has the potential to deal tons of damage In the Ace Fantasy wen't 9 Supply, 9 Rax, 11 Rax btw and the Bunker had no influence on the outcome of the game, it finished after both (morphing) Sunks and all the Lings were dead. Just because it used to be standard doesn't mean anything, really. I wasn't even talking about this game anyways, just wanted to refute d(O.o)a's point, I don't know why he's talking about an 8 rax.
"whether involving cheese or no" from what I quoted.
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On August 09 2009 03:29 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL. + Show Spoiler +Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position.
Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true.
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On August 09 2009 11:01 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 03:29 d(O.o)a wrote:On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL. + Show Spoiler +Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position. Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true.
also it's not true. if you go for a faster rax you are sacrificing econ. if you don't do damage with your marines, you are behind from the start.
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You're only behind in economy if the zerg 12 hatches. Any earlier pool timing and the economy is roughly even. Though if he does 12 hatch, I find it hard to see how the marines won't do any damage against such a late pool.
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On August 09 2009 11:01 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 03:29 d(O.o)a wrote:On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL. + Show Spoiler +Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position. Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true.
Using this logic you're also incorrect because 8rax could very well be considered standard.
Standard is a matter of opinion.
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On August 09 2009 08:58 n.DieJokes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Jaedong played much stronger than fantasy did in the outsider game, the debacle with the guardians really set him back; if he had executed that flank at the end he would have won. Nothing I've seen refutes that Fantasy is an average terran (at least in tvz) with above average coaching staff and a lot of special attention. I'll call him good when he actually plays well, not just makes good decisions
The fact of the matter is that an above-average coaching staff and a lot of special attention have made him not just an average or good terran, but an excellent terran. And it's not just the coaches and the attention --- fantasy is a real workhorse when it comes to practicing. He's also got the raw talent and the nerves of a champion. This guy's the real deal, like it or not. I'm sorry he beat your favorite player --- I was rooting for Jaedong too in game 1 on outsider and it broke my heart to see him lose --- but I can recognize amazing play when I see it. Fantasy had Oov/Flash macro, Boxer harass, and his overarching plan (mass tank to prevent nat break and then push out when Jaedong was starved for minerals) worked perfectly.
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On August 09 2009 13:59 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2009 11:01 AzureEye wrote:On August 09 2009 03:29 d(O.o)a wrote:On August 08 2009 23:50 okum wrote:Didn't Flash say that he thinks through every possible scenario? I'm sure he also follows that up with practice. + Show Spoiler +Also, Fantasy just definitely proved his TvZ, dismantling Jaedong when it mattered the most (whether involving cheese or not). He'll hold the #1 terran position for a while now regardless of what happens in the OSL. + Show Spoiler +Dude 8rax is not cheese because you can fail to do any damage and still be in a great position. Just because something is not all-in does not mean its not cheese. Cheese just means non standard play. The fact that T can fail the cheese and still be in great position only shows that Terrans hold a huge advantage over Z in TvZ and SC history + statistics show us that its true. Using this logic you're also incorrect because 8rax could very well be considered standard. Standard is a matter of opinion. Standard is how often it's used.
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0-3. I am not impressed. However he MIGHT be able to redeem himself in the MSL OSL ro4's (which he most likely will)
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+ Show Spoiler +Losing to hyuk is terrible of course (especially since jaedong is the best zvz and hyuk is an sktt1 zerg), but losing to fantasy twice is nothing to be ashamed of, especially considering fantasy's insane macro in game 1and his well-played cheese/mind games in game 2.
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On August 10 2009 04:18 ghostWriter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Losing to hyuk is terrible of course (especially since jaedong is the best zvz and hyuk is an sktt1 zerg), but losing to fantasy twice is nothing to be ashamed of, especially considering fantasy's insane macro in game 1and his well-played cheese/mind games in game 2.
+ Show Spoiler +Certainly not, but considering who is his biggest competition for PR #1 right now...
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On August 10 2009 06:53 Nylan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 04:18 ghostWriter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Losing to hyuk is terrible of course (especially since jaedong is the best zvz and hyuk is an sktt1 zerg), but losing to fantasy twice is nothing to be ashamed of, especially considering fantasy's insane macro in game 1and his well-played cheese/mind games in game 2. + Show Spoiler +Certainly not, but considering who is his biggest competition for PR #1 right now... + Show Spoiler + I feel like jaedong would have to lose really badly in msl/osl to drop his #1 spot, maybe even get swept by fantasy or something. He's just too far ahead of the competition to have a few bad decisions in proleague, even if it was the grand finals, impact his ranking.
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Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening.
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On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote: i think flash requires the least time out of all pros to practice, specifically because in two matchups he can do the same build over and over and still win. flash's strength is his defensive micro, gamesense, and macro. he uses these in just about every TvP to turtle to 200. its the same build, just adapting to whatever the protoss can throw at him.
It looks like Flash has invested a lot of time trying to craft and refine "solve-all" builds that will work on almost every map and against almost every opponent. You can see it by the way he plays TvP (notice that basically nobody else plays TvP that way right now), and the way he started to try to craft a solve-all for TvZ that depended less on MnM vs Muta micro and things like this. I would argue that (and this is definitely partly his fault) this attitude is due in large part to the sheer number of games he's had to play, and the over-dependence his team has on him. Oh, and bad coaching too.
Say what you want about practice time for TvT but I don't think Flash has to practice for it any less than JD does ZvZ or Bisu does PvP (in fact I think TvT and PvP both take way more practice than ZvZ because you actually have to prepare for potential proxies and other unique builds which are virtually impossible in ZvZ).
Flash's problem right now is he's gotten to this bad point where his TvP style works 100% of the time against mediocre Protoss players (seriously, when was the last time he lost to a mediocre Protoss player playing the "Flash build"?) and nearly 0% of the time against the elite. Similarly, his latest TvZ build (the bio-gol one) was so good against mediocre Zergs that we were getting ready to proclaim it "TvZ revolution", only to see it get picked apart by elite ZvT players and their carefully crafted 2 Hatch timings (Yarnc, JD).
Some combination of more practice time and better coaching will hopefully teach Flash that he needs to sacrifice some percentage of his overall likelihood to win to increase his likelihood of winning games that really matter. Notice how Luxury played like crap in PL while winning MSL, then stopped caring altogether and just played like crap all around.
On August 08 2009 23:36 Hot_Bid wrote: flash is slumping because he's slumping. yes, he was good, the best, for a short period of time, but i think he's largely overrated in terms of achievement and ability. there's no doubt he is/was the best terran at some point. but he didn't hold it long, and i'd definitely put fantasy over him now, in at least 2 of the 3 matchups.
Meh, he was the best player all around for about 3 1/2 months (basically until ForGG and Luxury knocked him out of MSL/OSL) and indisputably the best Terran for about a year. And to say "fantasy over Flash now in at least 2 of the 3 matchups" is a pretty harsh way to put it - is there any question at all Flash is better at TvT?
Also, Fantasy pulled one amazing TvZ comeback (a game that Jaedong really really should have won, as his coach alluded to that in the interview) and one brilliant build, invented by Boxer, that literally any pro Terran could have pulled off given JD's response. I agree that Fantasy is better in TvZ (because you're always scared of what he'll do) but just a week ago people still weren't that sure how good Fantasy's TvZ was because he loses to bad players sometimes and his bio control is still not great for a player of his class (and it wasn't that good against JD on Outsider either, which is part of the reason why JD got a huge lead and even infested a CC at one point...).
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
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ZvZ is definitely the easiest to prepare for because many games don't last that long. If it's a 9pool vs a 12hatch on a map like outsider, the game can end very quickly. However, even long games in zvz tend to be around the 15 minute range with ling and muta/scourge micro only while TvT can easily become a 40 minute turtlefest up to battlecruiser battles or whatnot.
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On August 10 2009 11:08 ghostWriter wrote: ZvZ is definitely the easiest to prepare for because many games don't last that long. If it's a 9pool vs a 12hatch on a map like outsider, the game can end very quickly. However, even long games in zvz tend to be around the 15 minute range with ling and muta/scourge micro only while TvT can easily become a 40 minute turtlefest up to battlecruiser battles or whatnot. well you could just as easily say that a BBS vs a 14CC on outsider can end the game very quickly.
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On August 10 2009 16:28 redtooth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2009 11:08 ghostWriter wrote: ZvZ is definitely the easiest to prepare for because many games don't last that long. If it's a 9pool vs a 12hatch on a map like outsider, the game can end very quickly. However, even long games in zvz tend to be around the 15 minute range with ling and muta/scourge micro only while TvT can easily become a 40 minute turtlefest up to battlecruiser battles or whatnot. well you could just as easily say that a BBS vs a 14CC on outsider can end the game very quickly.
The difference is, bbs isn't standard and neither is 14cc so I don't understand what you're trying to say. Unless they were practicing these specific builds, I don't see why they would do it in practice. In general, zvz takes the shortest amount of time to play and tvt takes the longest. Of course, this isn't always true but it's the trend because of the nature of the matchups.
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On August 10 2009 07:15 Avidkeystamper wrote: Fantasy should take the #1 spot easily if he beats Jaedong. If not, then obviously JD keeps the #1. Unless he loses to Calm, which I don't see happening.
Given that he beat JD in essentially a Bo3 in the most important tournament in Starcraft and Jaedong also lost his match to Hyuk in the same hugely important match, I don't see why fantasy would have to beat him to take #1. Why should he have to beat Jaedong in two different tournaments while the zerg only has to beat fantasy in one and all his PL mistakes are forgiven?
I think Jaedong's victory needs to be crushing if he is going to take it from fantasy, you can't go 0-3 in the proleague with two of the losses to your competition for #1 and expect to be on even footing with them going into a Bo5.
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